I don't recall ever reading a post on here encouraging long range, 'sniping' shots on game. Long range shooting?, yes, but not on game. Please try to understand the difference. P_102

Holy hell. How is this still a thread???



People mpbr has a place. Some people don't like it and prefer to use turrets and reticles. Turrets and reticles are more accurate. But proper utilization of mpbr will lead to ethical shots


The moral of the story is
A) don't trust some saying to assume you will be accurate. For example 1.5 at 100
B) verify your trajectory at distance you are going to shoot at
C) don't take a shot longer then you have practiced at and feel comfortable

There was a suggestion for a long range shooting board here.

This is a hunting forum, there are long range shooting forums for those who are into that, and that is where long range shooting enthusiasts should go.

Yes, I understand the difference - but apparently not all do.

Charles,
At what distance does "long range" begin in your view?

Well, this isn't a business forum either, but you seem to be advertising yours on here.

x2

In addition, there's no rule saying that you can't use MBPR and a mil dot reticle in conjunction with each other.

Out of curiosity, how does the BDC reticle from nikon sit with you all? Is it accurate and/or reliable?

First point - correct.

Second point - any BDC has to be correlated to the load being used. Pick a load, and then shoot using each mark and take notes.

The true reading could be 212, 323, 444, 532 or odd numbers, just make notes and tape the notes to the side of the rifle.

That would depend upon the shooter to some extent. Some shooters consider anything over 100 yards to be "long range". Then there is the rifle/cartridge combination to consider. As noted in the articles on MPBR that I posted links to, this varies quite a bit, depending upon what you are shooting - and shooting at.

A large number of shooters consider anything over 300 yards to be long range. If one was looking for a generally accepted answer to that question, 300 yards plus would do.

For me, with my deer rifle, a model 70 Winchester Sporter in 270WSM, I would consider carefully before addressing any game animal at 300 yards or more. I seldom shoot at more than 300 yards, though I am sure that the gun could do well, quite a ways farther out.
Pigs though, that is a different matter as they are varmints. I would take a longer shot at a pig than I would at a deer or antelope. This is because ethical shooting is more important to me than more meat in the freezer.

I get a kick out of watching game on the hoof. In order for me to consider taking a shot, it has to be what I am specifically looking for, and at a reasonable range. - The closer the better. The animal has to be pretty exceptional for me to stalk closer for a shot. If it's a spike or a doe, I'd just as soon watch it in the distance than go to all of that trouble. Now that I am getting long in the tooth, this is doubly true.

I once shot a pistol, a T/C contender in .357 magnum with a 10" barrel at a folded newspaper target on a hillside at 300 yards. I hit it every time - after three rounds to walk it in and determine how much hold-over to use.
The .357 load was radical, I would not recommend it to anybody. My brother would dip the case into "xyz" ball powder until full, strike it off level with the case mouth, then crunch it down with a Speer 180 grain Spitzer. This was his hunters pistol silhouette load. We fired hundreds of that load through the gun, maybe more than a thousand.

With my Marlin model 60 in 22lr, anything over 50 yards is getting into long range territory. It does pretty fair at 100 yards, but the groups open up considerably. My Ruger MkIII Hunter is more accurate at 100 yards than the Marlin is.

This one needs to go to the bunker already.

I'm with fine the Mods locking it.

All I did was report findings of a common hunting rig, and it's turned into criticisms, debates, and attacks. I'm done going in the same circle with the same trolls.

Yep we're all trolls if we don't agree with you. You need to grow up!

All the other trolls replied lately, you may as well have too.

Evidently trolls run in herds.

SWAG'ing it on a big game animal is poor protocol, even for a self proclaimed expert isn't it?

If you have nothing positive/constructive to add to this discussion, move on..

In a perfect world you have time to range a target, adjust your scope and take the shot. Often times, in my limited experience, you don't have the luxury of time. I know the dial-up on my hunting rifles. I also know their MPBR in case I don't have time to make adjustments.

I shot a deer at 190 yards yesterday and a pig at 42 yards. I didn't have time to range either so I just held the crosshair where I wanted the bullet to go. Neither animal took a step and my rifle is sighted in at 200 yards. I know my dope and how to use it but didn't have time in either case.

I would be truly interested in which method works better on targets at unknown distance.

JG, I appreciate your report and get what you're saying. I add new info to my toolbox and use it when it suits me or the conditions dictate.

For instance, I have one stand on a long flat sendero. Closest feeder is 200 yards. Average shot on this stand is 200 to 300 yards. My rifle is zero'd at 100, confirmed at 200, 300 and 400. When in this stand I just dial up to a 300 yard zero. Longest shot I made here is just over 400 yards. Not a true MPBR, but sort of similar. There's no one single answer for every scenario. Use the tools you have.

Nice of JG to prove your point for you, immediately after you posted it.

Instant validation like that is hard to come by, these days.

For many years, hunters had to trust the velocity data provided by cartridge manufacturers. This data could only offer "ballpark" accuracy, but nonetheless was the best information available at the time. Chronographs were expensive and arcane gadgets that only a few could afford. The early chronographs were also pretty finicky to work with. Everything had to be just right in order to obtain accurate data. - And how would you know if it was inaccurate? The few chronographs that existed back then were scattered all around the country, and were not portable.

The quality of manufacturers velocity data has improved since then, but it is still data from another gun than yours. Many complain that the data is intentionally fudged, not comprehending how much the velocity of the same load will tend to vary, when fired from different firearms.

Computer programmers are often blamed for poor results, and upon investigation it is not unusual for them to discover that bogus data was entered into a good program - producing bogus results. This happened so regularly that the phrase "GIGO" (Garbage in - Garbage out) was coined by programmers to describe it to customers who complain about the "garbage out" that they had been obtaining.

Today chronographs are inexpensive, reasonably accurate, portable, and easy to use. Getting reasonably good data about the velocity from a given load when fired from your gun is available at last. This goes a long way toward reducing the GIGO factor when working out MPBR data for your load, in your rifle. It does not eliminate inaccuracies, but it sure does reduce them.

Properly done, MPBR data includes a certain amount of "fudge factor" in that a 12" diameter kill zone is assumed to be 6" instead for example, in the MPBR calculation. In this case, the Maximum Point-Blank Range is the distance that your load from your rifle will travel without rising or falling more than three inches from the point of aim. - A six-inch circle. This done to allow for inaccuracies that tend to creep into data, and for the various things that may cause a hunter to shoot a slight distance away from his intended point of impact... Wind, excitement, distractions, animal movement, ballistics charts worked out at sea level, the effect if shooting up or downhill, limited time to plan the shot, the horse trying to bite you, etc. etc..

Hunters are sometimes disparaged because they cannot dope all of this out every time - but the real idiots are the ones who insist that they can.

As distance increases, so does the time of flight. Deer for example, have a 1/4 second reaction time. They are not going to hear your shot before it connects - but they can still hear and see everything else around them. There is no skill that can predict when and if a game animal may suddenly jump or move. They are live animals, not inanimate steel targets. If your shot takes one second to get there, that means that the deer has one second to move in any direction while the bullet is in flight. - And this is totally beyond your control, or ability to predict. No amount of ignorance or arrogance can alter this reality.

At normal hunting distances, out to 300 to perhaps 400 yards, this is not nearly as big a risk as it is for those who insist upon pretending that they are snipers instead of hunters, irresponsibly shooting at game animals at ranges that increase the uncertainty exponentially as the distance increases and the bullet slows.

MPBR sets a limit to how far a hunter can take a shot with reasonable certainty of a good result. - For both the hunter and the game animal.

Fooling yourself into believing that you can predict all variables does not. Instead, the long-range game sniper deliberately puts both himself and the game animal under the mercy of the GIGO rule. And when the shot does not work out as hoped, he will be too far away to reasonably expect to correct the situation by tracking the injured animal. - Assuming of course that he possesses the character necessary to harbor any concern about things like that. Taking a long-range shot at a game animal in the first place does not indicate that level of concern, does it?

For these, and a variety of other reasons, hunters are much more intelligent and responsible to use modern tools like the chronograph and the rangefinder along with traditional tools like the ballistics table to work out the MPBR for their firearm and the intended game - and so discover what ranges are close enough or too far away for a responsible, practical and sportsman-like shot.

It doesn't just reduce the likelihood of a shot gone wrong... It also increases the likelihood that your hunt will be a success.

Some are indifferent about that, and are willing to roll the dice - and others are sportsmen who will take whatever steps that they can to ensure a good outcome.

Do not be an arrogant fool... Be a good sportsman and your actions will reflect well upon hunters everywhere.

So it's clear you have put blinders in and plugged your ears. You only want the things to be true that you believe in your own mind, so you completely ignore outside influences that disagree with it. That makes your world revolve without any bumps. Either that, or you just don't pay attention.

Clearly your using 800 yards as your maximum metric of the evil of a long shot, because that is how far my range is. If my range were 600 or 1000, that's what you'd speak of. I've written on this very forum the same words repeatedly so many times I don't know the number and that is "learning what it takes to hit at 800 makes you a much better shot 100-400". That's the point of the classes I teach.

You like to bring up killing deer at 800 yards, while the ONLY animals I'be killed at long range are hogs, coyotes, and prairie dogs. I've written that so many times I've forgotten how many.

So, head troll of all the trolls, go on continuing to ignore plain facts, and keep your head in the sand. That's exactly what Hilary supporters did, because it made them feel better about themselves.

Everyone FJG posted an educated post that has merit and if it only benefited ONE forum member then it was a worthwhile post. This place is supposed to be a community of people with similar interests, educational, and a place for dialogue and the occasional venting . Don't turn it into a real house wives nonsense bs.

Charles why not just agree to disagree. And fwiw marksmanship is not a measure of distance it's a measure of repeatable and deliberate results.

Just want to make it clear that people who don't agree with you are not "trolls".

I think its safe to say both sides probably had an agenda behind the whole MPBR vs. range/dial. They both have their place, but they both need to be verified. The big take away is verify in the testing field don't trust the ammo box or ballistic calculator.

This a fact. Whether you sight in high at 100 yards or 0 at 100, if you don't shoot any further the only thing you really know is where you are at 100.