We all have error, but have to determine how much error is significant. I shoot deer in the lungs and have done so for over 50 years, with a succession of rifles. Pretty much all were shot with holdover, and with my first rifle - a 35 Remington - needed plenty of it, and I was darn good at it. It actually caused problems when I went to a 270. Under pressure (time pressure) I tended to shoot high. I still have to be careful with that.

If I was going to shoot deer in the brain stem, it would be much tougher than the lung shots I take, and the degree of error I live with when lung shooting would not be acceptable for the brain stem shots.

I'm beginning to get a strong feeling that we holdover guys and you turret guys just aren't going to agree on much. That's Ok, but sometimes when reading posts like this one I get the same feeling I get when folks show up at the front door to talk me into a new religion.

Makes me think back to the biggest buck I ever killed - an 11 point, with a kicker - that weighed 275. I was hunting a narrow ROW through woods in the lowlands along the Mississippi River. The ROW is about 35 or 40 yards wide, max. It was getting real late and real dim, and ground fog had moved in. I was in an elevated blind. I looked right...nothing. I looked left and "holy s___". He was already halfway across and moving quick. Many points. I could see that, and knew he was more than an 8. I got the gun up (270), and as his head disappeared into the brush on the far side of the ROW, I put the crosshairs about 6 inches below the top of his back and dropped the Ballistic Tip square through the heart. I didn't know the distance then, but knew that from where I aimed, the bullet would hit lungs or heart. It was a 268 yard shot. No time for turrets, which I didn't have, and no time for much serious thinking. It was 'gun up, safety off, crosshairs on, squeeze, breathe'. Maybe 5 seconds elapsed. Just plain old fashioned holdover. Mock it if you wish.

I think we need a long range forum.

I get that, and thousands never shoot past 150 yards. I understand holds on a duplex, and I also know most folks will never shoot a deer past 200 yards.

I won't advocate anyone shooting a game animal past their effective range, and I admire those that put in the time to extend their effective range. However, most deer in TX are shot well within that 200 yard mark, which basically makes both sides of the argument null and void.

603Country,

No disrespect. But you still haven't wrapped your head around the fact that I am not solely a "turret guy". I use holds 52 weeks a year and have EVERYONE use holds that come to my place. Because everyone needs to know how to make corrections in holds, when time is short. I'd lay $1k that I can pull of some great shots, very close to very far away, everything in between, and never touch the scope.

Some of the best kill shots on animals I've ever made were with a hold. It is absolutely something I believe very strongly in. But the precision part is that I know exactly where to hold, in the reticle, for distance, and know exactly where to hold, in the reticle for wind. Often times having to perform both simultaneously.

How does 100, 200, and 300 yards with a .270, and a duplex scope, with no turrets have anything to do with long range?

It is not null and void with the man that came to my range. He told me his average shot has been 180 the last few years, and 300 was quite possible. He came to me for help, and I helped. He also said he has never had place to confirm, precisely what he needs to do for the variable distances.

There is a THF member that sent me a PM telling that he just wants be a better shooter at 100 yards, and doesn't necessarily want to shoot farther. I said, sure no problem, we can do just that, and I won't push you any farther than you want or need to shoot.

Oh. Well, ya never said that before, or maybe I misread, which I often do. It seems that we are on the same side of the discussion after all. I like that, since I do respect your knowledge and skills and your sharing of that knowledge.

And I am very fond of my turreted scope and will get another one this Saturday.

Yes, holdover works fine, but within limits (distance limits, which is max 400 yards for me), and I think you made the point that a fellow needs to verify those holdover assumptions. Absolutely true. And you may have noticed that I favor calibers that are about 3000 fps MV. That is purely due to holdover and trying to be sure that my various rifles have close to the same holdovers. KISS principle.

Wow! were you in the military, or you ever been to Camp Perry? That's what I call confidence.

Nope. Thousands of rounds behind a rifle, shooting and spotting.

There's a list of guys on this forum I'd lay the same money on to do the same things.

I've mentioned it many times, but it gets missed for some reason. That's fine.

Thank you for the compliment, sir.

Nothing wrong with keeping your holds close to each other rifle to rifle. That's putting you on the way to having them memorized, which I bet you do. All you need is distance and you can make the shot. Sometimes speed counts, I get that. Good for you, for being prepared.

It's an assumption but following this thread I believe FJG is taking the MPBR principle and making it an exact science. Fwiw I think anyone serious about accuracy and shot placement should keep an open mind with him. He's clearly stated holds are just as crucial to the game as clicks of scope. Each has its place in a given circumstance. He's not bashing the mpbr concept of a hold imo. He is merely saying to trust factory ammo specs is foolish, which if you've messed with a chrono you'd know what's listed and what ya get are two different things. So why not establish concrete holds not just 1.xx" high when from box to box or even shot to shot you aren't getting repeatable results. The whole premise with mpbr, which I personally do like is based on consistent flight paths. Factory ammo usually won't give ya that.

Do you know Todd Hodnett?

Exactly Jorge! Thank you, sir!



Know who Todd is. Watched all the 500+ minutes of his and MAGPUL's videos. Took two little notes. Nice guy, great shooter.

That's why with my Burris ballistic plex or B&C reticle on my Leupold's I break out the yard stick to get subtentions. It gives me an idea of distance in inches from one power to another. Problem is past 300 and that yardstick gets tricky to read lol.

Give the man a break. He does know what he's talking about. And I've never met the guy but he seems genuinely interested in giving accurate knowledge to the forum. Just be glad hes not a blabbering fool.

Post of the year in the Rifles, Shotguns & Handguns sub forum

JG: "Well, that depends on target size....."

Charles: "In other words, you have no clue as to the meaning of MPBR - but you feel qualified to criticize it anyway."

Charles, this is a shining example of why you would be better off just reading and learning. MPBR is COMPLETELY about target size, even the article you put a link to points it out. P_102

Of course not. That might lead to responsible, sportsmanlike behavior in the field - And that is not compatible with encouraging people to engage in game sniping at extreme ranges, as opposed to actual hunting.

Nothing but white noise.

Completely not paying attention.

Read again. It is primarily about responsible, sportsmanlike hunting. The size of the game animal's kill area is one factor, not THE factor.

Maybe you would get more out of it if you had someone read it to you. - For my part, I had no trouble understanding the over-all concept at the first reading.

- And you apparently did not.

First off, MPBR has everything to do with target size, if you are doing it correctly. The first step is to determine the size of the target (vital area size/2). It could be 2" for a coyote, 3" for a deer, 4" for an elk, whatever you determine. That gives you the max above/below line of sight to figure your max range with. It you don't understand that, then you don't have a correct concept of MPBR.

I have three rifles that are set up for shooting LR using MIL reticles and or dialing. I usually leave them dialed for 200 yards when I am in the field. That is a relic of many many years shooting a modified form of MPBR with a bunch of different rifles. Basically if it is under about 225 yards, I put the reticle in the center of it, maybe shade a bit high or low just depending, and kill it. As long as I have plenty of target size to do so. If it is a small target or tough shot, then I take the time to get the proper holdoff and either dial or hold it in the reticle. Anything past 250 and I am going to my dope chart and dialing/holding exactly.

I have a bunch of other rifles I shoot a modified MPBR with, rifles with std duplex reticles. Basically, I zero everything without a scope that dials dead on at 200 yards. That way I don't get confused about different rifles, and where they are zeroed. I know, that isn't true MPBR. But is is pretty close to where that is with an average rifle, maybe 50 yards short or so. I know top of the arc is right around 165-175 yards, depending on cartridge, and at that distance I shade a bit low. By 225 I am holding a couple inches high. Without a scope that dials, I really don't like to shoot past 250 or so. If shots at that distance are a possibility, then I take a rifle that dials.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of my system since it is hybrid system that doesn't really make any sense to anyone but me. But I have shot it, and shot it, and shot it, to where I know where these rifles shoot. I can shoot any distance to 200 right here at work, and I shoot 4-5 days a week. I know the rifles are zeroed, and I know where the bullets are going at those distances.

To be quite honest though, I rarely carry a rifle in the field that doesn't dial anymore. It is just so much easier a system for me.

MPBR is not "primarily about responsible, sportsmanlike hunting"....hitting the vitals so your quarry does not suffer is....MPBR is simply one of many ways to so. And, yes, the size of the vitals area and ability to hit it is THE factor, it's why the article was written and published. P_102

Out.

I'm not sure why anyone is upset with this post or why there's any bickering.

What I take from this is 1) Don't trust published/advertised ballistics/trajectories from manufactures, and 2) Verify what your rifle and ammo are doing at various ranges.

Seems pretty logical and common sense to me.

Thanks for the report Fireman.

Because there are people that hate me, and I can do nothing right in their minds. And they feel the need to cause trouble at every opportunity. And that's fine, if that's what entertains them.

it's the way you wear your hair. it looks so sloppy