I was looking at the NF versus PST comparison post. It seems that the Vortex PST, in the space of two years, has gone in discussions here from "ya gotta have one" to "not worth much". Well, I bought one a couple of years ago, and I'm real happy with it, even in low light. But...can I get a better scope? Sure I can. And could I spend $4k on a scope? Sure I can, but I won't. Newcomers to the forum, from what gets said here, may well think that lower priced scopes are garbage, particularly if they don't have turrets on them. Maybe I'm saying this because I'm just a hunter and not a long range shooter. And I suppose that if I was a long range guy, I'd be drooling over whatever is the latest and greatest.

You should see the old Bushnell I took off my late father's old Ruger 77. It's 3-9, if you are strong enough to turn the ring by hand, otherwise it's a fixed 5. Just a plain old crosshair. And he killed truckloads of deer with it.

And now that I've had my chance to grump, what scope would I buy, if I decided to buy another? Well...

Power range - 4-16 probably, though the 5-25's do interest me.
Turrets or not - probably yes
Zero stop - definitely
Tube diameter - either 1" or 30mm would do.
Weight - light. No boat anchor
FFP or SFP - probably FFP, but more thinking needed
Illumination - probably, but better than the PST I have.

So now I'm into the big bucks, even though I grumped about it. Oh, well...thanks for listening.

I won't disparage anyone that uses a PST. I've had so many guys bring them to my class, I can't remember the number. If memory serves, none gave us any trouble. And if a guy finds one that fits in his budget, go for it.

Personally, the reason I went away from them was due to a couple of problems mine gave me. And those problems have been corrected by Burris, as well as NF SHV.

Literally ten minutes ago a good friend came out with a PST to check zero before he goes hunting. The ammo is now second loaded brass, fit to his rifle. Cold bore shot landed .5 Mil right. I had him dial it left .5 and I reset the turret to zero. I told him the CBS is the hunting shot, let's let the rifle get back down to the temp it was when you showed up. We gave it 15 minutes, and fired one more shot. Perfect zero! So the scope did do exactly what we told it to. I reminded him to keep a close eye on the turrets since they're so easy to turn. He knows that, because he flubbed a shot last year on a mule deer, because his windage turret had inadvertently been dialed 1.0 Mil right while he was walking with it slung, prior to the shot.

Are they still good scopes? Sure.

Are there better options than a PST? That varies individual to individual.

Hmmm, that reminds me. If anyone has a 6-24 Vortex Viper PST FFP that's lightly used and has been replaced by something fancier, I might have interest if it's priced attractively (attractive to me, not you).

One thing about the Vortex Viper 4-16 PST FFP that I have is that the POI never varies. I snug the Tikka into the bags and blast away and the bullet strike is exactly where it's supposed to be. Every time, for several years. Adjust the turret to put the bullet an inch higher, and that's where the bullet goes. That impresses me.

As for the turrets turning when they shouldn't, my scope has never had that problem. I check it because of comments some of ya'll have made, but have never found it to be off. Ya got me worried though, so I'll keep checking.

Please do, I'd hatr for you to miss an animal at the fault of the scope.

Of course the ease of the turrets will vary scope to scope, yours might have more resistance than several I have had my hands on.

East shot my long range match with a PST. On one particular stage he zeroed the stage, I was even spotting. After he was done, he looked at the windage knob, sire enough it had moved. He corrected it, and the next stage he hardly had a miss.

Same reason I've swapped props on my boat 4xs. The factory prop did OK, was neither fast nor good shallow water holeshot. Prop 2, gained 4 MPhil and bumped the RPM to 6000, pissed port holeshot. Prop 3, gained no speed, monstrous holeshot but bogged motor down. Prop 4, same as prop 3 with less cup, gained 2.5mph over stock, killer holsehot. Kicker is prop 1 is $350, prop 2 $650 (awesome prop, didn't fit my needs), prop 3 $800 (balanced and lab finish, still didn't fit my needs), prop 4 is prop 3 with custom work @ $190. Moral is prop 1 works for 90% of the owners but not me. So those owners praise the prop, take 2 of those owners and put them on my boat. Now in comparison they think prop #1 is not so great BUT only in comparison. One guy says thats worth $990, other ghys says not to me, sure is nice but thats too much money. The PST is still a good scope but now there are other options available at a higher price that do it all better(and have been all along, just like the props). There are more users here now that have had a PST and gotten to use a NF, S&B, TT, high end vortex etc. They see the value, buy the scopes and give opinions accordingly.

I agree with you 603. I have a Vortex Viper PST FFP both in 4-16 and 6-24. I love them! They work great for hunting and shooting.

I looked through Fireman's SWFA SS HD 5-20 as his rifle class and man, that HD looks amazing! It is dangerous looking through a scope with HD glass because I guarantee you will want one after looking. I just can't justify spending the money for a different scope when the Vortex accomplishes 100% of my shooting needs.

Has anyone tried the Athlon Argos? It's a FFP scope with tactical turrets, multiple reticles, and in MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA.

Amazon has them right now for around $370.

I have a PST 4x16ffp on my 30-06. Excellent scope for the money. Never had an issue. Great illumination. When I had it mounted on my 223 shooting 6"-10" steel was never a problem out to 600yards, always did what was asked of it. Ive killed many varmints at night with it. Is there better glass out there? Of course. I just bought a Steiner military M5xi for my varmint rig. Way better scope, much much better glass but also a much higher price tag. Got it off the Hide slightly used at a really good price. Theres absolutely nothing wrong with a PST and well worth the money if u shop around. They can be had for 600-700 in excellent condition.

You also need to consider that new offerings in the same price range have come out in the past few years. Nightforce and Burris have already been mentioned. THere are also lower end optics that are improving and getting attention.

A strip of Gorilla tape or similar is quick and cheap insurance and easy enough to pull off if an adjustment is needed.

I don't buy Vortex scopes because I don't see as well through their glass as I do some other brands. I have a friend on this forum that sees better through Vortex than most other brands. The only caveat for me being I do see very well through the Razor line.

Like I've said, I'm good with Vortex glass. That said, I sure have seen the diff between good glass and bad glass. Many years ago I was pig hunting around Bandera and was sharing a big blind with a buddy. Didn't see a pig till it got dark, then I could hear them but not see them. I was straining to see a pig through the Tasco 6-24 I had on my fat-barreled 220 Swift, and could see nothing. The buddy handed me his rifle with a Zeiss scope. Holy Cow...pigs everywhere.

I've never paid over $600 for a scope. I don't like paying more for a scope than the rifle it sits on. I've heard so many conflicting reports on Vortex. Seems like people love them or hate them. I have a 2 Zeiss Conquests and the rest of my optics are Leupold. Weavers & SWFA SS.

Well, sometimes an upgrade is needed. I had mid grade scopes and then got some Leica binocs. Then I could see stuff in dim light that the scope wouldn't let me see. So I upgraded scopes. I think it might not always be good to buy the high dollar binocs. :-)

I'm an advocate of doing that very thing.

I have a couple that the scope cost more and I could and would be happy to use a accurate precise shooting 400 dollar rifle with a 3000.00 scope on it

Ditto, but since my LR rifles are north of $3k the scopes cost as much as the rifles do.

Just like 603 pointed out, you can't shoot what you can't see.

The scope you describe sounds a lot like the ATACR F1 4-16x42.. except it has 34mm tube.. Love mine.. just wish the rifle it is on would quit breaking...

Me too.

Multiple times I've bolted a $1000-$1500 scope onto a $300-$600 rifle, and it worked splendidly.

Some of my scopes cost less, some considerably more than the rifles they are mounted on. I spend as much money as I can possibly afford on my optics. Over the last two years I've upgraded my scopes and binoculars. I'm now saving to upgrade my spotting scope. The one I have now came in a box of crackerjacks.

For the money I really like the bushnell elite Tactical long range hunter. Good glass, and reticule I enjoy to use. I have a 3x12 and a 4.5x18...it has a zero stop, good target knob that does not stick up too much,and a lot of nice features for $1100 to $1200 dollar mark...I have a SWFA 5x20, I do not have it out of the box yet but the glass looks great and cannot wait to mount it and stretch it's legs and it was very reasonable for the features it has.Scope value has really gotten affordable for the quality of glass and features you get. If you have $900 to $1500 you can get a lot of scope, that just a few years ago would have cost you 3K or more . My bushnell DMR is almost on par with my S&B PMII for half the money, and right now my PMII is setting in the safe...I have 3 tactical elites in service...the PST is a good scope, I have a gen 1 razor and like it, it reacts true and is a quality piece.

I have a vortex viper 4-16 LR, Same scope as the viper pst minus illumination and windage turret, it just has an elevation turret. I have been happy with it, holds zero well, far as I can tell it tracks well, at least when you turn the knob then turn it back it still hits where its supposed to.

Its not the brightest scope and the eye box can be unforgiving but I don't think I could get the same amount of scope out of another manufacturer for the same money. That said if I had it to do again I think I would look harder at ss hd and for sure the new burris.

And the turret on mine has very positive firm clicks, It doesn't move unless your turning on it in my experience. But like others said it may vary scope to scope and I'm sure the more you twist the easier they are to turn.

I gave the Vortex and honest try but couldn't make it work for me. Took it off and returned it to Cabela's where I promptly traded it for a Leupold VXIII. Problems solved and never looked back. All my rifles are hunting/sporting. None are bench/long range rifles, so the Leupold VXII's and VXIII's work great for my applications.

I must say, while I'm still happy with mine, it was kind of a shot to the pants that my 20 year old Leupold VXII has better glass.

Yep...I was told many moons ago that when buying a hunting rig you want to spend twice as much for the scope as you do for the rifle and then they showed me why...I've never forgotten the lesson.