Ok, seems like the vast majority of what I read and am told is that wild birds are the best thing for young dogs/ pups. I hear it over and over that wild birds will teach the dog. Seems that it's ok for young dogs to flush, and chase wild birds. So here is my question:

When your young dog gets into wild birds, will you shoot birds that he bumps, flushes, tries yo pounce on? Or do you wait until he makes a solid point and let's you walk in to flush the bird before you shoot one?

That's a good question that I would like to know the answer to also.

No expert here but you shouldn't shoot bumped birds. The trainer I used told me not to shoot at all last year, it was my mutts first year hunting. I was to make him hold. Let Bill O get on here, his opinions are worth way more than mine

When young dogs are in the field, you quit hunting and continue training. Let a 25' heavy check cord be your friend. Let the pup drag it around,but be where you can get the dog stopped around other pointed dogs. Seize the opportunity to work your pup when you see birds on the roads of your lease. Be in control! Control the entire situation. The pup must be pointing or honoring or maintained by the CC before you or anyone else shoots. Remember, you have to take control of the whole scenario you encounter with all the dogs you have down at the time AND THE OTHER HUNTERS with you. Let everyone know what you need to accomplish with each scenario. If you see your pup intentionally bust a covey, you must catch the pup and take it back and set him up sternly at the place he should have pointed them. No shooting until everything is done right. Once your pup's light has seemed to come on, you can proceed to the e-collar and begin using the tone or nick feature turned down real low. You must create the perfect scenario i.e. point, hold, honor, stopped, flush, before any shooting takes place. The shot is the reward for all bird dogs and they only get rewarded for doing everything right. Only shoot correctly pointed birds.

I'm no expert either but I simply don't shoot unpointed birds. I'm not there for dead birds. The e-collar is my CC. Haven't used a CC in the field in years.

Good advice North, but not all dogs react the same to "sternly" replacing. I did that with my Britt when I was training with pen raised birds and launchers. I was letting her chase for quite a while. The first time I whoaed her after a launch, and reset the dog to the original spot, a light came on but the wrong one. I released her and moved toward the next launcher set. She proceeded to BLINK the next 2 launcher setups. I then picked her up and went home. Took her to Ronnie Smith and had him restart the trains process to fix the issue I created. I guess the point is you have to be careful about corrections.

I don't leave unbroken pups down for long periods of time. I like to collar condition them before I take them on a real hunt.

68,
When I say "sternly", all I am doing is catching the pup, picking him up, planting him in the spot, whoaing him, and requiring him to hold and pay attention to the front. Style him up and make him focus. Not Roughing him up other than maybe a slight ear pull. I am not a heavy handed trainer, but I do require the pup to focus on the task at hand. Taking a dog off his feet gets their attention. Don't prolong the correction scene. 30 seconds and be done with it. Go to the next scenario. The worst trainer is a mad trainer. You can't get mad. Expect the worst and create a win with every situation.

My young dogs are whoa broke, holding point and collar conditioned before we hunt. By the why I

I use a lot of pen raised birds. Sorry about the post hit wrong button.

Switching them to wild birds from pen raised can be timely for some pups. Others switch right over on the first covey.

The first bird dog I ever had I got as a puppy. I was about 20 years old and we still had just a few wild birds here at home. I worked with her LOTS, and she was extremely well socialized and handled very well. She was the only dog I had. She had a great nose and extreme prey drive. The first weekend I took her out west she became a hunting dog. I could make her hunt dead and she retrieved everything I shot. All of this came natural to her.
However.........she would hold solid for as long as it took, but once I got about 6 ft from her, she would flush the birds. I accepted this as normal because she was really the first dog I hunted behind. I killed lots of birds over her and she will forever be remembered fondly.



Last year, I got a finished dog and a 6 month old pup. The pup just started naturally backing and eventually pointing on his own. BOTH of these dogs will hold solid and let me walk past them to flush the birds..BOY O BOY WHAT A DIFFERENCE. I get lots more time and don't have to rush the shot, easier to kill multiples as well. Buddy (last years pup) is now 15 mo old and I can't wait to hunt him this year.

Now, regarding the 2 six month old pups I have- I want to make sure they are solid on point and will let me walk in and flush the birds. I don't want to wind up with another dog that jumps in when I get close.

IMO. If you get a point at all shoot the bird. This teaches pup 2 things. Together you and him are a team and this is what your after. Also hunt pup alone. Don't want him following older dogs. He needs to learn on his own how to hunt. Don't bring your buddies either. Don't risk them shooting birds that are too close to pup. Hopefully you don't want a close working pointer where you feel the need to hack the dog to keep him close. That's what tracking collars are for.

After a solid first season getting pup to bring out his natural desire to hunt and point birds then the formal training starts

Pharmvet,

When a dog breaks point when you get that close as you described with that dog from yesteryear, change your approach to the flush. Never come into the flush from behind the dog. Swing wider and approach the dog from the front. Breaking point is a no-no even from that distance. If the dog is in the scent-cone and can see you too, there is better chance they will hold. By coming from behind, the dog is thinking you are inviting him to break when you walk past. Be quiet around your dogs on point. The less noise, the better. When you approach from the front, you will see pup get up on his tiptoes and focus because he sees you to. If he still breaks, don't shoot. Catch the dog and re-plant him. He has to learn that only you can flush the birds.

Pharmvet,

When a dog breaks point when you get that close as you described with that dog from yesteryear, change your approach to the flush. Never come into the flush from behind the dog. Swing wider and approach the dog from the front. Breaking point is a no-no even from that distance. If the dog is in the scent-cone and can see you too, there is better chance they will hold. By coming from behind, the dog is thinking you are inviting him to break when you walk past. Be quiet around your dogs on point. The less noise, the better. When you approach from the front, you will see pup get up on his tiptoes and focus because he sees you to. If he still breaks, don't shoot. Catch the dog and re-plant him. He has to learn that only you can flush the birds.

I second the come from the side or better come in from the front. If you already hunted pup last year I would start collar condition him to hold. Don't do this around or on birds. When pup is solid with the collar to hold then use it on birds. There is a process on this in the Training with Mo book. It takes about 4 weeks. Better get started

Probably shouldn't do this but....My Opinion and mine alone. I'll shoot when they bump them but I will never kill one until they let me flush. I don't know how many times I cussed myself when I missed killing one for a young dog that did it right. So don't miss those. Usually wild birds will break them from creeping. I think young dogs need to figure out they can't catch wild birds.

Usually they will have a pretty good whoa and understand handling to the front. Those birds are the best teachers in the world. It just can't be simulated good enough. I wish I was 10 years younger with new knees. I would have 5-6 pups right now. This year sounds to be a great year to have a pup.

Part of the answer to this question is "what do you want your dog to become"? Do you want steadiness to point, just to flush, honor, wing and shot or all of the above? Do you want non-slip delivery to hand? Determine this first, and then tailor training to that end. Also, if you can afford it, spend time at a game farm. That way, you know where the bird is, and will have much more productive training sessions.

As North recommended, the check cord/pinch collar is your friend and should be on your young dog at all times. You must maintain control. For me, I would get a young dog on plenty of birds but never let the dog break(not even to shot). So, that would be hunt, locate point (hold with check cord), have a friend flush, shoot a blank(and/or shoot the bird), release to retrieve, all while on a check cord and with a training partner. Once he figures out the game, then it is on to yard training (heel, here, whoa, fetch, etc..) and go back to the field later.

A case can be made for using pen raised birds to set up situations such as walking birds or another bird in the bush.

I started walking some of the birds out after a few days. Here you go;

Yes Bill, a liberated bird has its' place in training. But like you mentioned a few posts back, making the conversion to the field on wild birds can present some problems. The liberated bird will allow crowding where wild birds will not. Hopefully, our dogs become knowledgeable after a couple of bumps and subsequent "lectures" to figure the correct distance out.

That motel looks real familiar/ Henrietta Hilton?

The one and only!!!! Stayed there many a night.

haha! Too funny. Grew up in Wichita Falls and passed that place many a time. I will be driving by it Tuesday. I would never stay there.

Here is a classic difference of opinion ----- in the movie I am posting, the setter walks with the hunter, my gsp holds tight, the setter bumps the birds, my friend shoots, and then starts telling his setter "good boy"-------- if the setter was mine I would have shocked the crap out of him after he took his first step, and been telling him "whoa" ----------- different hunters have different expectations from their dogs.
setter bumps covey

Every trainer in America uses pen raised birds to train dogs -- I have never noticed any difference how the dogs react to pen riased and wild -------- except,,, once my dogs have become experienced hunters they will point pen raised, but with zero enthusiasm.

It not so much to how the dogs react as it is to how the birds react. Liberated bird will let a dog get too close and still walk around in front of him where as a wild bird or covey will explode from even a greater difference. Believe me when I say a good dog knows how to mentally measure.