Can we post a sticky on this forum that includes guys that you should not take advice from?????? Or maybe something like a reputation or rating system. I'd hate for a new member to read some of these threads where certain guys are flat out wrong.

Quite possibly the worst advice I've seen on this forum in 7 years..

UPS stores are not the same as UPS shipping hubs. They contract with UPS but they have their own rules outside of UPS and are independently owned.

It looks like it applies to dealers to me. It specifies to an individual in your own state or to a dealer in any state. Texas is part of "any state". If it said "or any other state" I would be more inclined to think the dealer part didn't apply in your own state. I wouldn't confuse getting away with it with being legal.

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm or ammunition, prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm and requires obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt.

right on. I have to drive 40 miles to a UPS center to ship ammo. hence I now longer ship..

that's not an isolated case, been there done that

The reg is posted. Each may read it and decide which path they will follow.

Note the prosecution quoted, there are others like it.

Charles, do you have a FFL?

Yup,
This was at the UPS store in The Village at Allen. The person taking my shipping instructions was the store owner. After she typed in all the details, she asked me what was in the package. I said it's a rifle. She said she can't ship it and showed me a paper taped on the counter. I told her that what I'm doing is legal and that the paper that she's showing is only talking about ammo and powder. She called UPS and had me talked with an agent. The agent told me that the stores have their own accounts and if I want to ship the rifle, I need to go to a UPS distribution center.

Kevin, thanks for posting, like previous post, newbies on here can get misguided info and impression that members here are not totally honest

This ^

Westex,

one additional thought in re-reading your note. The "interstate" nexus mentioned in these statutes is a requirement to provide federal jurisdiction to issue and enforce the statute or regulation, under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution. What constitutes "interstate commerce" is the subject of lots of litigation.

There is a famous case, Wickard v. Filburn, in which a man raised grain to feed his own chickens. The Supreme Court held that the activity affected interstate commerce and thus he had to comply with federal regulations regarding crop production. There have been some limits put on that reasoning in recent years by the Supreme Court, notably in concealed carry laws, but the concept is very much alive.

Let it suffice for the discussion here to say that delivering a firearm to the custody of USPS, UPS, or FedEx, all common carriers operating nationally, meets the "interstate" nexus for purposes of the disclosure requirement.

As stated a couple of times now, the disclosure requirement is an issue distinct from who may ship to whom. The analysis of who may ship to whom does turn in part on whether the shipper and recipient are residents of the same state or it crosses state lines.

jeffbird - when you say "that analysis does turn in part on whether the shipper and recipient are residents of the same state or it crosses state lines", it isn't clear what you are referring to. Do you mean who may ship to whom?

Yes, correct. Edited it, is it clearer now?

It seems like my signature would tell you something about that. You have to have an FFL to take in a firearm for repair. If the customer never leaves the shop while you do the work, then you could get by without one, but I've never heard of anybody operating that way. Most repairs take a while and more often than not, parts have to ordered and waited for. In any case, there is no gunsmithing work that I know of that comes out better if you get into a hurry. There is a certain responsibility involved in working on other people's firearms, and I take that seriously.

Here in Texas, you can ship to another individual without going through an FFL holder, IF you and the other individual both reside in Texas, and you are shipping from a Texas address to another Texas address.

In other words, you cannot ship to a guy from New Jersey who has a hotel room in Texas. The recipient must be a fellow Texan.

You cannot ship to a fellow Texan who is in a hotel in New Jersey either, it must be to another Texas address.

If both of those conditions are not met, then you must ship to an FFL, so they can fill out the necessary paperwork, go through the FBI background check, etc..

That is how it is here in Texas, I can't say about other states.

It would apply if the dealer were to ship to an individual. I have been a gunsmith for better than thirty years, and have not yet seen any occasion to do that. - It is generally accepted practice for gunsmiths to ship, if they have to, to another FFL.



In other words, you are only required to notify the carrier IF you are NOT shipping to "a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector".

Come on now, surely you guys know how to read a legal document.

If you are shipping to an individual, you must notify. If you are shipping to an FFL holder for example, no notification is required and what you have in the box is none of the carriers business.

What you put in the box is your business, not theirs. "Machine parts" or "Steel Pipe" is all that they need or deserve to know, if they get inappropriately nosy about it.

If you act like a sucker or a victim, you'll soon be suckered into being victimized, just as sure as night follows day.

I understand that those who were quick to cast aspersions based upon ignorance are sorry, so there is no need to apologize. All is forgiven.

Yes, I see you hold yourself out as a gunsmith.

Do you have a current FFL?

Generally correct, but does not address the issue of disclosure to the carrier.

I don't know about casting aspersions based upon ignorance, but I can certainly read. ATF specifically says when using a common contract carrier you must notify them that you're shipping a firearm or ammunition. It does not say "except when you're shipping it to an individual". If you can find that part below, let me know. Again, the fact you've gotten away with it in no way implies it's legal.

"A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm or ammunition, prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm and requires obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt".

Grizz - Interesting, what you quoted and what charlesb quoted seem to conflict with each other.

There is a tutorial on the right hnad side of the Gun Broker How To Ship Notice that has the USPS Regs printed out in plain english. Please take notice of the differences in the Regs for shipping a Handgun... or a Long Gun. THEY ARE DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER.

FWIW I've found some smaller USPS locations unable to read their own Regs and/or do not know or care about the differences between a Hand Gun and a Long Gun. As one of the station Mgr's said to me...a Gun is a Gun and I treat them all alike regardless of what His Own Copy of Regs said waving his copy of ther Regs around like it was the Holy Gospel at a tent revival...and was the same exact Regs I was holding trying to show him the differences between a Handgun and a Longgun.... Telling me I HAD To and Must Use his FFL brother in law to ship the gun in question and pay him $50 for an FFL Transfer to another FFL Holder or get sent to Leavenworth ...when I was simply asking about the Regs for shipping a Ruger 10-22 RIFLE to an out of State FFL holder, for a legal transfer to my buyer...to see if this location was knowledgeable about the Regs or not.

OBTW Conversations with USPS station managers are usually not helpfull, as they are NOT used to CUSTOMERS knowing more about the hyper convoluted USPS regs than they do, and likely to call the cops on you just for spite and get you out of their hair....even when you simply ask a question without having the packaged firearm in the building - and have the print out of The USPS regs in hand when the manager conveniently can't find his... BTDT

OH...USPS Regional Mgmt is no better at understanding what you are complaining about either...so go to a bigger city location and the counter clerks will usually know what they can do or not do...like when they don't ask anything but the standard will it burn or blow up questions and process the carton in a minute or two.
Ron

Here is the statute:

18 U.S.C. § 922 (e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

Corresponding regulation from the federal Code of Federal Regulations.

27 C.F.R. § 478.31(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.


ATF plain language guidance:

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm or ammunition, prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm and requires obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a)(5), 922(e) and (f); 27 CFR 478.30 and 478.31]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-nonlicensee-ship-firearm-common-or-contract-carrier


Each person can read the statute, the reg, and the ATF statement and then decide for themselves to follow Charles advice, or notify the carrier. There is no downside to disclosure, especially if you want it insured.

The downside to following Charles' advice if he is wrong -

"The penalty provision for section 922(e) is found in section 924(a)(1)(D), which states “whoever—... (D) willfully violates any other provision of this chapter, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than five years, or both.”

United States v. Brummer, 632 F. Supp. 2d 1216, 1217, 2009 WL 1975398 (S.D. Fla. 2009), aff'd, 598 F.3d 1248, 22 Fla. L. Weekly Fed. C 603, 2010 WL 760666 (11th Cir. 2010)