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Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator #6405850 08/12/16 11:03 PM
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Early next week I will take delivery of one of those rubber donut deresonator gadgets that you slide onto your barrel.

I have run into a situation that calls for the barrel to be tuned, rather than the load. I have a light 30-06 load that cannot go lighter on, and that I do not want to push faster. (2008 fps 150 grn bullet) - This puts me into the same predicament as .22lr benchrest shooters, who are the most enthusiastic users of barrel tuners.

Most shooters either try out different factory loads, or if they are reloaders, they fool around with different powders and loads until one of them works out for them. - In each case, the one that "works out" does so because the barrel vibration cycle happens to be in the middle of its up and down motion as the bullet leaves the barrel.



When you pop off a round, the barrel whips kind of like a garden hose being waved up and down, in what is called a sine wave, pictured in the image above. Ultra slow-mo videos show this in action. The whole thing wriggles and squirms.

If the bullet happens to leave while the muzzle is at the center, not at the top or bottom of its squirm, then you get lots better accuracy.

The Limbsaver deresonator, ugly though it may be, will act like the Browning BOSS barrel tuner by giving you a weight that you can move forward and back on the barrel until your groups tighten up. - You shoot two rounds, note the group size, then move the deresonator a small distance and try it again. Sooner or later, you'll hit the "sweet spot" where that load shoots a dime-sized group.

Youtube Vid

Anyway, I'll try it out early next week, and report my findings here. Until then, feel free to talk among yourselves...

Last edited by charlesb; 08/13/16 09:45 AM.

Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6406152 08/13/16 03:08 AM
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I can't get over the way those things look. I just couldn't do that to a rifle.

Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6406282 08/13/16 09:35 AM
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They are definitely tacky, there's no doubt about that.

Most barrel tuners look more like the Browning/Winchester BOSS, a lot like a muzzle brake without the holes in it. - Though some have the holes and serve a dual purpose.

The Limbsaver deresonator appears to be most popular with fellows who run a can. It goes between the end of the fore-end and the can, allowing barrel tuning where otherwise it would not be possible. My observation here is that if you are running a can, then good looks have already been pretty well abandoned in any case, so adding a deresonator is not going to make it look much worse.

Tuner with a can.

I intend to buy one of the nicer-looking tuners for a project rifle that I am working on. PDT Tuners

For this Patriot in 30-06 though, I only intend to use the deresonator/tuner with the light target loads that I mentioned. When I'm shooting anything else, the rubber donut will come off. Returning it to the "sweet spot" for the target loads will be a simple matter of using a tape measure when putting it back on the barrel again.

Tuners really shine when you want a particular load to shoot well, without having to monkey around with different charge weights, bullet seating depth, etc.. - Like if you wanted to shoot a particular factory load, and get the same accuracy that you would get with a carefully developed hand-load.

That capability is sort of purdy, in itself.

Last edited by charlesb; 08/13/16 09:53 AM.

Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: Sneaky] #6406539 08/13/16 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sneaky
I can't get over the way those things look. I just couldn't do that to a rifle.


Looks like a butt plug


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Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: Reloder28] #6406577 08/13/16 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: Reloder28
Originally Posted By: Sneaky
I can't get over the way those things look. I just couldn't do that to a rifle.


Looks like a butt plug




To me it looks like a dust cover for a CV joint.

Then sometimes it reminds me of the dust cover for the stick shift on a VW van, where the stick comes out of the floor.

I'll have to take your word about the butt plug.

Last edited by charlesb; 08/13/16 05:10 PM.

Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6406639 08/13/16 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: charlesb


Most shooters either try out different factory loads, or if they are reloaders, they fool around with different powders and loads until one of them works out for them. - In each case, the one that "works out" does so because the barrel vibration cycle happens to be in the middle of its up and down motion as the bullet leaves the barrel.



When you pop off a round, the barrel whips kind of like a garden hose being waved up and down, in what is called a sine wave, pictured in the image above. Ultra slow-mo videos show this in action. The whole thing wriggles and squirms.

If the bullet happens to leave while the muzzle is at the center, not at the top or bottom of its squirm, then you get lots better accuracy.



Youtube Vid

Anyway, I'll try it out early next week, and report my findings here. Until then, feel free to talk among yourselves...


Not quite correct. The speed of the barrel's motion is maximum at the middle of the cycle and you therefore get maximum dispersion of shots due to the most minor velocity differences. What you8 actually want to have is the bullet to exit the muzzle as the the muzzle is approaching the very top of the vibration cycle.

The peaks of the cycle are where the speed of barrel motion is minimal and the effects of velocity variances are minimized.


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Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6406687 08/13/16 06:47 PM
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These are so ghetto

Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6406707 08/13/16 07:10 PM
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Seems like you could play with the load a little without adding a whole lot of velocity.

Either way, good luck to you. I hope it does what you need it to.


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Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6406732 08/13/16 07:42 PM
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Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6406738 08/13/16 07:50 PM
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they work really well.
i have one on my 223 rifle.
they'll get way more popular when
someone in a movie has one on their
rifle and the price goes way up.
then they'll be trendy instead of
ugly and folks that have them will
scoff and ridicule at those that don't

Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6406745 08/13/16 08:08 PM
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I hate to tell him but my boss is on the other end.


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Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: RiverRider] #6406835 08/13/16 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: charlesb


Most shooters either try out different factory loads, or if they are reloaders, they fool around with different powders and loads until one of them works out for them. - In each case, the one that "works out" does so because the barrel vibration cycle happens to be in the middle of its up and down motion as the bullet leaves the barrel.



When you pop off a round, the barrel whips kind of like a garden hose being waved up and down, in what is called a sine wave, pictured in the image above. Ultra slow-mo videos show this in action. The whole thing wriggles and squirms.

If the bullet happens to leave while the muzzle is at the center, not at the top or bottom of its squirm, then you get lots better accuracy.



Youtube Vid

Anyway, I'll try it out early next week, and report my findings here. Until then, feel free to talk among yourselves...


Not quite correct. The speed of the barrel's motion is maximum at the middle of the cycle and you therefore get maximum dispersion of shots due to the most minor velocity differences. What you8 actually want to have is the bullet to exit the muzzle as the the muzzle is approaching the very top of the vibration cycle.

The peaks of the cycle are where the speed of barrel motion is minimal and the effects of velocity variances are minimized.


Thanks for bringing that up, I had the wrong idea.


Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #6406839 08/13/16 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks
Seems like you could play with the load a little without adding a whole lot of velocity.

Either way, good luck to you. I hope it does what you need it to.


I hope to find out early next week, weather permitting. - Lately we have been getting a good deal of rain in west Texas. The gadget is supposed to be delivered sometime Monday, and I have 50 rounds loaded, ready to try it out with.

I also have a new borescope coming, that will be fun to play with.


Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6406848 08/13/16 10:31 PM
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That is a gorgeous place to be when summer rains keep it green. Wish I was in that neck of the woods myself.


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Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: RiverRider] #6407320 08/14/16 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
That is a gorgeous place to be when summer rains keep it green. Wish I was in that neck of the woods myself.


Most importantly, all of the game animals reproduce at a much higher rate when it greens up, and the ranchers land will support a lot more cattle, bringing beef prices down. Next year there will be a large bump in the population of pronghorn, elk, mule deer, and auodad sheep. Pigs too, unfortunately. The population of auodad (barbary) sheep imported from Libya has already exploded to the point where some of the ranchers are beginning to class them with the pigs, as nuisance critters. This will bring down the price of sheep hunts across the state, pretty soon.

I moved to west Texas at the tail end of a long drought, got to see it like that, and then I got to see it green up when the drought broke. Both conditions are part of desert life, I've been told, so you have to be ready to see it either or both ways.

It looks like there will be a lull in the rain on both Monday and Tuesday here. - So I will probably get to experiment with the rubber donut deresonator on Tuesday morning. It will be nice to pop a cap or two... I am used to shooting once or twice a week, and the rain has put a damper on that.


Last edited by charlesb; 08/14/16 12:29 PM.

Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6410570 08/16/16 02:08 PM
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OK, well the Limbsaver deresonator works exactly as advertised.

Instructions said that for free-floating barrels, to start off at 3/4" from the muzzle, try a few shots, then move it back 1/2" and try a few more, move it back 1/2" and try a few more, etc. etc..

Here's the results I got with two-shot groups at 50 yards:

Code:
Setting:   Group:
3/4        1"
1 1/4      3/8"
1 3/4      3/16"
2 1/4      5/8"
2 3/4      7/8"


So next time, I'll start off at 1 3/4" and make 1/4" adjustments to see if I can tighten it up any further.

maximum called it: From now on when I see one of these, I'll figure that the fellow using is going to be shooting bug-holes. A lot of the "ugly" rubbed off of the thing, when I saw how well it worked.



Now my 2000 fps 150 grain fmj 30-06 loads are not only dirt cheap to load, but accurate too. - Perfect for recreational shooting at 100 yards or less. Probably not bad for varmints at those ranges too, as they are not going to tear up the pelt, or turn the critter inside-out.

When I use the gun for big game, I'll take the deresonator off, or come up with a setting (measured from the muzzle with a tape measure) for the more powerful load. Once you know the setting for a particular load, you can always go back to it.

Loads with less velocity deviation between shots will respond best to the tuner.

My load:

Hornady 150 grn FMJ BT
28 grn AA5744
Winchester LR primers
A COAL of 3.224" puts these bullets .015" off of the lands on this Mossberg Patriot. (I might be better off letting them touch the lands, will check that.)
Velocity is approximately 2000 fps.

Last edited by charlesb; 08/16/16 11:49 PM.

Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6410647 08/16/16 02:58 PM
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I wonder if anyone ever uses those on rifles with varmint contour barrels? I've got a 26-06 that is giving me fits on finding a load and I'm thinking about trying one of those as a diagnostic tool. If I can "tune it" to shoot acceptable groups with that thing on the barrel, then it tells me that somewhere out there is a load that will duplicate that tuning. If it still won't shoot with the deresonator, I may need to start troubleshooting the rifle itself.

Input anyone? Am I completely off base?


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Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: Texan Til I Die] #6410733 08/16/16 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: Texan Til I Die
I wonder if anyone ever uses those on rifles with varmint contour barrels? I've got a 26-06 that is giving me fits on finding a load and I'm thinking about trying one of those as a diagnostic tool. If I can "tune it" to shoot acceptable groups with that thing on the barrel, then it tells me that somewhere out there is a load that will duplicate that tuning. If it still won't shoot with the deresonator, I may need to start troubleshooting the rifle itself.

Input anyone? Am I completely off base?


They have a model intended for larger diameter barrels.

Limbsaver Deresonator

Tuners are most popular among benchrest shooters. They work on thick barrels too.

Have you tried a ladder test on your hand-loads? That's usually the most reliable way to track down a good handload for a particular rifle.

Ladder Test


Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6410855 08/16/16 04:54 PM
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I think an experiment would be interesting, Charles. You could check to see if the position of the device optimizes for all ranges, or just one. I'd like to know if you have to move it when you change up from 100 yards to 200 yards, for instance.


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Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6410978 08/16/16 06:10 PM
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The load that I am shooting (150 grain bullet at 2000 fps) isn't going to do much good beyond 100 yards or so.

I've tried to think of some reason why you would have to move the deresonator for different ranges, and drew a blank.

They cost around ten bucks, be my guest if you would like to play around with one and see what it does.


Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6411466 08/16/16 11:51 PM
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Didn't mean to come off as being pushy...I guess I sometimes forget other folks sometimes aren't as curious as I am. Maybe I'll get one just to satisfy my curiosity. I'll have to drive an extra 100 miles to shoot at a range where no one will recognize me, though.
farmer

To explain why it may need adjustment for different ranges, the theory is closely tied to the sine wave pattern of vibration we were kicking around just the other day. Tuning the load so that the bullet exits the muzzle just as it is approaching the peak of its pattern causes the trajectories of shots to coincide at some range or another. Through trial and error, we make the trajectory coincidence take place at 100 yards. If you want to optimize for 200 yards you'll be tweaking the load a bit. So that is tweaking the load to match the barrel's vibrations. If you're going to make the barrel's vibrations match up to a load, it stands to reason that the same principle applies.


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Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6412021 08/17/16 11:51 AM
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That sounds reasonable.

For more serious use (and a better-looking firearm) I would recommend one of the better barrel tuners like the PDT tuners for centerfire rifles made by Ezell.



Ezell Custom

They cost quite a bit more than the Limbsaver rubber donut deresonator, but you get what you pay for.

The Limbsaver unit at ten bucks is good for general use, and for casual experimentation like I have been doing. For any kind of serious application though, especially for competition, target shooting or for a custom firearm, I'd cough up the extra bucks for one of the nicer units with a graduated scale for settings.

I use a tape measure when setting my Limbsaver unit, measuring from the end of the barrel. This hare-lips me a bit as an old machinist, as you can imagine.

Most tuners are made for either rimfire target rifles, or for AR's. The Ezell tuner can be mounted on most hunting rifles. (Up to a certain caliber, I would imagine.)

I haven't looked into them very closely, so I dunno how big a bullet can be squeezed through the ones that they offer.

Browning/Winchester made the BOSS tuners for up to 338 caliber, if I remember correctly. - Maybe 458, I am not certain.

Essentially, a barrel tuner is just a movable weight attached to the barrel. That's all that they really are, though some feature the use of special rubber or plastic compounds alleged to reduce vibration. The Limbsaver unit is not very heavy, being made of rubber, so it has to move further than a steel unit has to. This is why the steel units can use a graduated scale and only need to move maybe a inch or so at the very most.

If I had my machine tools set up, I would be manufacturing these do-dads.

Last edited by charlesb; 08/17/16 12:10 PM.

Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6412126 08/17/16 01:30 PM
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I used one for a few seasons and I think it helped my confidence so you can say it helped! I had some problems with my vision and my shooting really suffered so I was in the anything that might help mode! After I removed it once for cleaning I noticed it was starting to melt and bond on the barrel so I never put it back on!




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Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6412153 08/17/16 01:44 PM
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Don't think so, River. It's not a matter of shots/trajectories coinciding at 100 yards, it's a matter of getting the shots to leave the barrel at the exact same time (or position in the sine wave) so that they are all on the same trajectory. Once you accomplish this, the best setting will be the best for all distances.

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Re: Limbsaver Rubber Donut Deresonator [Re: charlesb] #6412231 08/17/16 02:26 PM
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That's not possible to accomplish. Ask an experienced benchrester about the theory.


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