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#6395431 - 08/05/16 12:37 AM H4831SC to H4831
TackDriver Online   content
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Registered: 05/02/14
Posts: 603
Would substituting H4831SC for H4831 be beneficial to get a better case fill? Better case fill helps with consistency. Just a thought since my case is only filled 90% with H4831SC. H4831 will fill it more close to 100% for the 6.5 x 284

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#6395507 - 08/05/16 06:49 AM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: TackDriver]
dee Online   content
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Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 5018
Loc: Red River way
Not necessarily. The sc packs tighter or more consistent the regular will not be as even but a drop tube would help.
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#6395669 - 08/05/16 09:23 AM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: TackDriver]
RiverRider Online   content
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 7110
Loc: Wise Co.
I would say that if you've got room left over using the SC version, and you want a fuller case, the regular H4831 will fill the case a little better.
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#6395670 - 08/05/16 09:24 AM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: TackDriver]
ChadTRG42 Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
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Loc: Lewisville, TX
The non SC does take up more room in the case. So it would increase your case fill with the same powder charge. But, you are changing powders and lots, so you will need to start over on the load. If you have a working load with the SC, just run it. It will work fine. 90% case fill is fine.

If you are running your 6.5x284 on a short action, the 4831 SC is a good powder. If you are running it on a long action, I would switch to a much slower burning powder to get your speeds up. I never was able to get any speed out of a 6.5x284 with 4831, but it did shoot good.
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#6395769 - 08/05/16 10:53 AM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: ChadTRG42]
jdk1985 Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42

If you are running your 6.5x284 on a short action, the 4831 SC is a good powder. If you are running it on a long action, I would switch to a much slower burning powder to get your speeds up. I never was able to get any speed out of a 6.5x284 with 4831, but it did shoot good.


Asking out of ignorance - how does the short vs. long action have an impact on this?

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#6395862 - 08/05/16 12:28 PM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: TackDriver]
ChadTRG42 Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
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The 6.5x284 was originally made as a short action round (308 Win, 243 Win, 260 Rem length). It's a short, fat case, with a rebated rim (308 Win case head). When you want to shoot the heavy, high BC bullets, like a 140 grain Berger VLD or Hybrid, the bullet is seated very deep in the case for it to feed out of a short action magazine. That's about at 2.800" to 2.860" in COAL loaded length. Loaded as a short action caliber and the 140 bullets seated deep, you impede on the available powder volume, and can not get a lot of powder in the case. Loaded like this, you may get 48 to 50 grains of 4831SC in the case. Speeds will run about 2800 to 2850, 2900 if you are lucky. There have been numerous shooters upset after buying a short action 6.5x284 rifle because they "read on the internet" that they can push a 140 grain 2950+ fps. You can not get this in a short action due to the reduced case volume capacity and the bullet seated deep in a short action. I had one customer really up set about this when all I could get was 2850 fps at max pressure, and the accuracy node shot best at ~2820 fps. He said he might as well shoot a 260 Rem, and I agreed. I have tried with multiple 6.5x284 rifles built on a short action to hot rod it to get the speeds up, and none of them went faster than 2850 fps. (You can get them faster than this with a double base ball powder, but then you run into the temp sensitivity issues, which I won't mess with).

To make the 6.5x284 shine and get the higher speeds, a lot of shooters build this round on a long action and chamber the rifle with a long throat. This allows you to seat the bullet out long around 3.200" to 3.400". This gets the 140 grain bullet out of the case more, and increases your case volume significantly. You can now run a stiff load of H1000 or Retumbo (about 56-59 grains) and get the speeds up to around 2950 or more. With a longer barrel, I've seen 3000+ fps, which is a freakin' awesome round to shoot.
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#6395958 - 08/05/16 02:10 PM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: ChadTRG42]
TackDriver Online   content
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Registered: 05/02/14
Posts: 603
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
The non SC does take up more room in the case. So it would increase your case fill with the same powder charge. But, you are changing powders and lots, so you will need to start over on the load. If you have a working load with the SC, just run it. It will work fine. 90% case fill is fine.

If you are running your 6.5x284 on a short action, the 4831 SC is a good powder. If you are running it on a long action, I would switch to a much slower burning powder to get your speeds up. I never was able to get any speed out of a 6.5x284 with 4831, but it did shoot good.

My 6.5 x 284 is a 9 twist with a 27 inch Shilen Match barrel, so I won't be able to stabilize the 140's, but currently using the 123 Sierras Match, last experiment I was pushing barely 3100 fps with 53.5 grains H4831SC but was shooting nicely with 50.2 grains but its slow.

Do you think it will stabilize the 130 Hybrids if I were to switch? Does pushing it faster help in spin to stabilize? This Rem 700 action came off a 6 mm that I bought from an old friend. It's a short throat with 3.340 with a comparator. I can probably try a drop tube to see how much powder I can squeeze out of a Retumbo.


Edited by Big Stan (08/05/16 02:21 PM)

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#6395968 - 08/05/16 02:20 PM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: TackDriver]
okierifleman Offline
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Registered: 04/14/12
Posts: 389
Loc: Houston
Chad, I am running a 140 Hybrid at about 2975 with H4831SC out of my long action 6.5-284 with a 26" 8 twist Bartlein. I have clocked speeds over 3000 with this combo but backed off a little because of pressure signs. I tried Retumbo, but the loads were really compressed before I got the speeds I wanted.

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#6395974 - 08/05/16 02:24 PM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: okierifleman]
TackDriver Online   content
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Registered: 05/02/14
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Originally Posted By: okierifleman
Chad, I am running a 140 Hybrid at about 2975 with H4831SC out of my long action 6.5-284 with a 26" 8 twist Bartlein. I have clocked speeds over 3000 with this combo but backed off a little because of pressure signs. I tried Retumbo, but the loads were really compressed before I got the speeds I wanted.


How much powder are you using?

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#6396008 - 08/05/16 02:55 PM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: TackDriver]
ChadTRG42 Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 11043
Loc: Lewisville, TX
A 1:9" twist will stabilize a 140 VLD. If you look at the Berger calculator (link below), it will stabilize just fine with a 1.3 stability factor (SF). The 130 VLD/Hybrid will also stabilize with a 1.43 SF. I'd lean to the 130 VLD, but if you want to run the 140, it will work. Yes, pushing it faster allows more RPM's, which increase stability some. Drop tubes work well to cram more powder in a case. You will need to be able to seat the bullet out LONG to run Retumbo. Is your rifle a short or long action? and do you know what your seating depth is where the bullet touches the lands on a 130 or 140 Berger?

http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
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#6396014 - 08/05/16 02:58 PM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: okierifleman]
ChadTRG42 Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 11043
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Originally Posted By: okierifleman
Chad, I am running a 140 Hybrid at about 2975 with H4831SC out of my long action 6.5-284 with a 26" 8 twist Bartlein. I have clocked speeds over 3000 with this combo but backed off a little because of pressure signs. I tried Retumbo, but the loads were really compressed before I got the speeds I wanted.


Yes, you can get the higher speeds in the long action with most powders, including 4831 with a longer barrel. Retumbo has shown to get more speed than 4831 in the long action rifles I've played with, and they shot very well, also. The key is the long action and seating the bullet out far.
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#6396027 - 08/05/16 03:13 PM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: ChadTRG42]
jdk1985 Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 12045
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
The 6.5x284 was originally made as a short action round (308 Win, 243 Win, 260 Rem length). It's a short, fat case, with a rebated rim (308 Win case head). When you want to shoot the heavy, high BC bullets, like a 140 grain Berger VLD or Hybrid, the bullet is seated very deep in the case for it to feed out of a short action magazine. That's about at 2.800" to 2.860" in COAL loaded length. Loaded as a short action caliber and the 140 bullets seated deep, you impede on the available powder volume, and can not get a lot of powder in the case. Loaded like this, you may get 48 to 50 grains of 4831SC in the case. Speeds will run about 2800 to 2850, 2900 if you are lucky. There have been numerous shooters upset after buying a short action 6.5x284 rifle because they "read on the internet" that they can push a 140 grain 2950+ fps. You can not get this in a short action due to the reduced case volume capacity and the bullet seated deep in a short action. I had one customer really up set about this when all I could get was 2850 fps at max pressure, and the accuracy node shot best at ~2820 fps. He said he might as well shoot a 260 Rem, and I agreed. I have tried with multiple 6.5x284 rifles built on a short action to hot rod it to get the speeds up, and none of them went faster than 2850 fps. (You can get them faster than this with a double base ball powder, but then you run into the temp sensitivity issues, which I won't mess with).

To make the 6.5x284 shine and get the higher speeds, a lot of shooters build this round on a long action and chamber the rifle with a long throat. This allows you to seat the bullet out long around 3.200" to 3.400". This gets the 140 grain bullet out of the case more, and increases your case volume significantly. You can now run a stiff load of H1000 or Retumbo (about 56-59 grains) and get the speeds up to around 2950 or more. With a longer barrel, I've seen 3000+ fps, which is a freakin' awesome round to shoot.


Thanks; that makes sense

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#6396055 - 08/05/16 03:45 PM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: ChadTRG42]
TackDriver Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 05/02/14
Posts: 603
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
A 1:9" twist will stabilize a 140 VLD. If you look at the Berger calculator (link below), it will stabilize just fine with a 1.3 stability factor (SF). The 130 VLD/Hybrid will also stabilize with a 1.43 SF. I'd lean to the 130 VLD, but if you want to run the 140, it will work. Yes, pushing it faster allows more RPM's, which increase stability some. Drop tubes work well to cram more powder in a case. You will need to be able to seat the bullet out LONG to run Retumbo. Is your rifle a short or long action? and do you know what your seating depth is where the bullet touches the lands on a 130 or 140 Berger?

http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/


The rifle used to be a 6mm, so its a short action? I checked the 130 VLD OAL with a comparator and it measures 3.415. I measured the action from the front to the back without the bolt and it measures 6 and 1/4 inches and with the bolt its 7 and 1/4 inches.


Edited by Big Stan (08/05/16 03:53 PM)

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#6396063 - 08/05/16 03:53 PM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: TackDriver]
ChadTRG42 Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 11043
Loc: Lewisville, TX
6mm what? If it was a 6mm Rem, then yes, it should be a short action. What's the COAL from base to bullet tip where it hits the lands?
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#6396068 - 08/05/16 03:57 PM Re: H4831SC to H4831 [Re: ChadTRG42]
TackDriver Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 05/02/14
Posts: 603
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
6mm what? If it was a 6mm Rem, then yes, it should be a short action. What's the COAL from base to bullet tip where it hits the lands?
With the dial caliper alone without a comparator its 3.117. and yes its a 6mm Rem


Edited by Big Stan (08/05/16 03:58 PM)

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