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Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: WestTexasGolfer] #6391119 08/02/16 02:54 AM
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I have seen an old spike, and shot him. Must have been 40 years ago. Cuz and I put up a new stand and drew straws to see who'd hunt it. Nobody had ever hunted this area - that we were aware of. I won. That afternoon, in a cold drizzle, I huddled under an old USMC poncho that had stuck to my hands some years prior. Just at dark shoes started slipping out of the woods into the bean field stubble. Just when things got real dim, here came a buck, crawling on his belly. Crawled out of the woods, being super careful, and crawled into a ditch, raised his head and surveyed the area. He slowly got up and I slipped my Marlin into place and popped him. He had twisted spikes about 6 inches long. Had a gray muzzle and very few teeth. He was skin and bones, but was man enough to still be working the rut. The meat was like chewing a boot.

And the spike (prob 4 years old or so) on our place has spikes about 12 inches long, or at least he had. Maybe he'll have a rack this year and I won't know it's him. I doubt he'll have a rack.

Last couple of years we had a 3 point roaming the place, but the neighbors got him.


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Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: WestTexasGolfer] #6391191 08/02/16 03:46 AM
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I always thought it interesting that other deer species having spikes for their first antlers is common and expected, but everyone gets all excited about a whitetail spike.


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Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: WestTexasGolfer] #6391199 08/02/16 03:52 AM
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I promise he will be if you shoot him.


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Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: passthru] #6391228 08/02/16 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: passthru
I promise he will be if you shoot him.


clap


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Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: txshntr] #6391276 08/02/16 06:24 AM
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This buck is 3 years old. He was a 6" spike at one year old. He was born in October/november so he wasn't as mature his first year as deer born in June and July.

He's not a special deer on my place. But he's no slouch. He'll be a 12 point main frame and score ~170 when he's killed in a year or two.

I don't think he should be shot as a spike for the sin of having a late birthday.



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Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: WestTexasGolfer] #6391291 08/02/16 08:51 AM
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Not always.

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: therancher] #6391331 08/02/16 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
This buck is 3 years old. He was a 6" spike at one year old. He was born in October/november so he wasn't as mature his first year as deer born in June and July.

He's not a special deer on my place. But he's no slouch. He'll be a 12 point main frame and score ~170 when he's killed in a year or two.

I don't think he should be shot as a spike for the sin of having a late birthday.




My brother cleared all of the deer from his place before he HFed it (that was a tough job), then he brought in bred does and breeder bucks to start his herd. The first fawns made for 11 bucks, one was a spike. After the first year we could no longer tell which one was the spike.
They were 5 years old this last hunting season and the four small ones were shot, they all scored 170+.
I figured that spike was born late, the genetics were good so we had to give him a chance.


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Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: BOBO the Clown] #6391407 08/02/16 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted By: Leonardo
Not sure where that came from.

In one, researchers at the Texas Parks and Wildlife’s Kerr Management Area research facility determined that spike bucks are indeed inferior to branch-antlered yearlings. It found spike deer, in both captive and wild population samples, have lower body weights on average and grow smaller antlers at older ages. One study determined that yearling spikes had an average of 6.4 points on their antlers at 4 ½-years of age while yearlings that had six points produced racks with an average of 10.1 points when they reached 4 ½.


Note that TPWD took a south Texas breeder buck and line breed it to only the breeders bucks offspring... They took a hill country spike and Line breed the spike to only the spikes off spring.

Great study that showed a 170" 210 lb STX buck will throw bigger off spring then a hill country spike...by a percentage of overall B&C score.

Not really an even playing field. Note there was no middle group where the cross breed between two control groups.

Rock science results.

Y'all have fun



Thank you BoBo! Most hunters could not tell you who Big Charlie is much less the fact his father and maternal grand father were known deer with large racks and bodies and that every single forked horn deer in the spike study came from Big Charie, and let's not forget he was a 160" deer at 3.5.

There are numerous study's in the Kerr publication and one of the other studies involved feeding different percentages of protien to deer over a 4 or 5 year period. There were only 2 spikes in that study and if you look at the numbers at 4.5 or 5.5 the two spikes are two of the biggest antlered bucks in the study.

The Devil's in the details and the field was most definitely not level in the Kerr study. Looks more like they developed a hypothesis and set out to prove it rather than do everything they could to disprove it and allow it to establish on its own if it were fact or not. Definetly not the scientific method.

Is every spike a future book deer? No. There are so many biological and environmental factors that could lead to a 1.5 old deer being a spike it's just not worth killing them.

Just my opinion.

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: WestTexasGolfer] #6391477 08/02/16 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: WestTexasGolfer
I have always heard once a soike always a spike shoot it...


True or else it will turn into an unstoppable breeding unicorn capable of breeding all the doe just under the noses of all the big pretty horned boys. While they are out showing off their racks and fighting for dominance Unicorns got the ladies bred before they get over themselves. Then he will run off all the big horns because he can impale them instead of locking horns in a pointless display off dominance and testosterone.

Overtime he will eventually create a completely a spike gene pool and your trophy ranch will turn into a goat farm. Seen once seen it a million times.


-Those who say money can't buy happiness never bought a dog.

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: WestTexasGolfer] #6391550 08/02/16 03:00 PM
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Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: Simple Searcher] #6391668 08/02/16 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: Simple Searcher
Originally Posted By: therancher
This buck is 3 years old. He was a 6" spike at one year old. He was born in October/november so he wasn't as mature his first year as deer born in June and July.

He's not a special deer on my place. But he's no slouch. He'll be a 12 point main frame and score ~170 when he's killed in a year or two.

I don't think he should be shot as a spike for the sin of having a late birthday.




My brother cleared all of the deer from his place before he HFed it (that was a tough job), then he brought in bred does and breeder bucks to start his herd. The first fawns made for 11 bucks, one was a spike. After the first year we could no longer tell which one was the spike.
They were 5 years old this last hunting season and the four small ones were shot, they all scored 170+.
I figured that spike was born late, the genetics were good so we had to give him a chance.


Exactly.


Crotchety old bastidge
Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: Simple Searcher] #6391673 08/02/16 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: Simple Searcher
Originally Posted By: therancher
This buck is 3 years old. He was a 6" spike at one year old. He was born in October/november so he wasn't as mature his first year as deer born in June and July.

He's not a special deer on my place. But he's no slouch. He'll be a 12 point main frame and score ~170 when he's killed in a year or two.

I don't think he should be shot as a spike for the sin of having a late birthday.




My brother cleared all of the deer from his place before he HFed it (that was a tough job), then he brought in bred does and breeder bucks to start his herd. The first fawns made for 11 bucks, one was a spike. After the first year we could no longer tell which one was the spike.
They were 5 years old this last hunting season and the four small ones were shot, they all scored 170+.
I figured that spike was born late, the genetics were good so we had to give him a chance.



Here is a neat photo history of a deer through its life - starting as a spike and turning into a very nice mature deer.


http://www.realtree.com/deer-hunting/galleries/photo-gallery-from-buttons-to-booner

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: Txhunter65] #6391680 08/02/16 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Txhunter65
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted By: Leonardo
Not sure where that came from.

In one, researchers at the Texas Parks and Wildlife’s Kerr Management Area research facility determined that spike bucks are indeed inferior to branch-antlered yearlings. It found spike deer, in both captive and wild population samples, have lower body weights on average and grow smaller antlers at older ages. One study determined that yearling spikes had an average of 6.4 points on their antlers at 4 ½-years of age while yearlings that had six points produced racks with an average of 10.1 points when they reached 4 ½.


Note that TPWD took a south Texas breeder buck and line breed it to only the breeders bucks offspring... They took a hill country spike and Line breed the spike to only the spikes off spring.

Great study that showed a 170" 210 lb STX buck will throw bigger off spring then a hill country spike...by a percentage of overall B&C score.

Not really an even playing field. Note there was no middle group where the cross breed between two control groups.

Rock science results.

Y'all have fun



Thank you BoBo! Most hunters could not tell you who Big Charlie is much less the fact his father and maternal grand father were known deer with large racks and bodies and that every single forked horn deer in the spike study came from Big Charie, and let's not forget he was a 160" deer at 3.5.

There are numerous study's in the Kerr publication and one of the other studies involved feeding different percentages of protien to deer over a 4 or 5 year period. There were only 2 spikes in that study and if you look at the numbers at 4.5 or 5.5 the two spikes are two of the biggest antlered bucks in the study.

The Devil's in the details and the field was most definitely not level in the Kerr study. Looks more like they developed a hypothesis and set out to prove it rather than do everything they could to disprove it and allow it to establish on its own if it were fact or not. Definetly not the scientific method.

Is every spike a future book deer? No. There are so many biological and environmental factors that could lead to a 1.5 old deer being a spike it's just not worth killing them.

Just my opinion.


The Kerr is about 6 miles east of me. I'm old enough to remember when that study came out and I've been there a couple of times recently for range/predator management courses.

They sure are proud of that study to this day. And I guess they're oblivious to the fact that over time folks have learned how bogus their study was. They still have the sheds on display.


Crotchety old bastidge
Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: WestTexasGolfer] #6394203 08/04/16 11:25 AM
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jefbird...how did your brother clear all of the deer off his place before hf?

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: WestTexasGolfer] #6394406 08/04/16 02:30 PM
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Spike bucks are a natural part of any natural deer herd. Trying to wipe them out in the search of huge racks (something nature itself made very rare) is simply dumb. I for one don't care a thing about the size of an antler since I only hunt meat now. This obsession with big antlers will eventually bite us all in the butt since it is proven that non-hunters widely support hunting when it is for meat but they get squirrelly when it is for antlers. So if they get the idea that big antlers are all you care about, don't be surprised if they try to shut down hunting in the future and they will use your own words against you.

All game animals are special and none should be called "inferior" simply because they don't look the way you want them to.

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: Flags] #6394489 08/04/16 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: Flags
Spike bucks are a natural part of any natural deer herd. Trying to wipe them out in the search of huge racks (something nature itself made very rare) is simply dumb. I for one don't care a thing about the size of an antler since I only hunt meat now. This obsession with big antlers will eventually bite us all in the butt since it is proven that non-hunters widely support hunting when it is for meat but they get squirrelly when it is for antlers. So if they get the idea that big antlers are all you care about, don't be surprised if they try to shut down hunting in the future and they will use your own words against you.

All game animals are special and none should be called "inferior" simply because they don't look the way you want them to.


Great opinion sir, and I applaud you for it, however it is up to the individual to determine their own motivation for hunting, and whatever it may be, we are all hunters the same. It doesn't matter if it's for horns, hide, or meat, no man has the right or authority to dictate to another what is right and just, as long as the hunting practices are safe and legal. There are many (hunters & non-hunters alike) who, from their high horse, want to dictate what is the "right" way to hunt. As far as I'm concerned, those with their "holier than thou" attitude can GFT.

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: kdkane1971] #6394889 08/04/16 09:02 PM
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That's why uncle teds on his "sport, meat, trophy campaign. Hunters should consider each kill all three.

Absolutely nothing wrong at all with liking big antlers on the meat animal you hunt sportingly. And as already stated, "sporting" is an individual criteria that you and I don't have the right to determine for each other.


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Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: fishbait] #6394926 08/04/16 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: fishbait
jefbird...how did your brother clear all of the deer off his place before hf?


??? I do not have a brother, or a high fence place.

That box above my link is a quote from another poster.

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: WestTexasGolfer] #6395004 08/04/16 10:27 PM
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If you believe "once a spike always a spike" you have never watched a certain deer through the years.

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: WestTexasGolfer] #6395404 08/05/16 04:21 AM
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I shot an 8.5 year old spike with 2" spikes. Always wondered if he was a spike all his life? Guess I'll never know!

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: WestTexasGolfer] #6396066 08/05/16 08:56 PM
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i have several 6 point mule deer, that are not much taller than yearlings.In the previous years i have had several long spikes that are short. Almost sure they are the same. Have been working to get them out of gene pool.

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: 06roadglide] #6396249 08/06/16 12:03 AM
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I don't know but Spike meat is good. We used to call it Camp meat. food


Bobby Barnett

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: WestTexasGolfer] #6396663 08/06/16 02:01 PM
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I have never heard of anyone that really thought a spike would always be a spike.

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: WestTexasGolfer] #6396669 08/06/16 02:08 PM
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What about Axis deer? Everyone that I have seen around here their first set are always spikes.

Re: Once a Spike always a Spike?? True or false? [Re: bobcat1] #6396702 08/06/16 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: bobcat1
I don't know but Spike meat is good. We used to call it Camp meat. food


confused2
That's what I thought..Shot a spike while bow hunting..
End up paying full trophy fee mad frown mad

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