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Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest #6384775 07/27/16 07:57 PM
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I a new to Texas, born and raise in Louisiana. I moved to east Texas and found a hunting lease in Tyler County. I was really excited until I found out there is a thirteen inch spread limit on bucks. From what I have been told, the deer in east Texas rarely reach a thirteen inch spread. I know it Louisiana pineywoods, they would never reach thirteen inch spread, although there are no size limits on them to allow them to grow.

I will follow the size limit rules, because that is just what I do. I am just wondering if everyone else does. The law has been changed for several years now. Do you consistently see mature deer that have the genetics to allow their horns to spread outside the ears (thirteen inches)?

I make the assumption that the habitat that I hunt in east Texas described as piney woods, low mast crops, high yield yaupon understory does not produce the nutrients required for deer to produce racks that will reach thirteen inch spread.

And guys, come on, I know there are people that killed deer with thirteen inch spread in east Texas. I want to know if rule change consistently produces deer getting into the thirteen inch spread or is there a bunch of mature basket racks running around eating everyone corn.

Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6384783 07/27/16 08:02 PM
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Before, they killed anything that walked out with horns because they couldn't kill does. Now, they have to wait until it's big enough, and in most of ETX there is a couple weeks of doe season.

Yes the bucks are reaching 13 inch inside spread and for the most part, it is working


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Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6384805 07/27/16 08:19 PM
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Have lived and hunted in east texas for all of my 30 years and the 13 inch rule is working for sure. There are plenty of bucks that reach at least the minimum spread limit thanks to this rule where before they would be just been killed as 1 or 2 year olds. You will have to hunt harder in east texas to find a nice buck but they are out there. These came off leases in Angelina and Nacogdoches Co.


Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6384987 07/27/16 10:28 PM
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The rule is not perfect. There are mature bucks that are under the 13 minimum. But I've never seen the quality of bucks East Texas has produced the last 5 years before that, because most hunted with the mindset "if it's brown it's down".

I guess the good news for you is your not that far from Louisiana if you want to shoot any buck you choose.


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Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6384989 07/27/16 10:29 PM
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The only reason the bucks in east Texas rarely reached 13" was before the AR's if it had horns it went down. Because of the rule we are having to let them walk and with some age they will exceed 13". Do we have bucks under 13" that need to die? The answer is yes, but what I have seen is that the AR's are working.

Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6385001 07/27/16 10:46 PM
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I live in one of the original counties that implemented the 13" rule. It has made a world of difference and in my opinion the good far outweighs the bad. I can't promise that you will see any legal bucks but I do think your chances of seeing some good bucks (or any buck for that matter) are greater than they were before the rule was implemented. Good luck!







Last edited by rabbit_jack; 07/27/16 10:49 PM.
Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6385015 07/27/16 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: BuckFodder
And guys, come on, I know there are people that killed deer with thirteen inch spread in east Texas. I want to know if rule change consistently produces deer getting into the thirteen inch spread or is there a bunch of mature basket racks running around eating everyone corn.
Where I hunt, I'm about 30 min from the La line. Just in the last few years, our bucks are outside the ears. The only basket rack bucks we see are the young ones. Haven't seen a mature buck 13 or less (other than some 3 points, which are legal) on camera yet.

Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6385089 07/27/16 11:54 PM
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Where at in Tyler Co? Away from the river you shouldn't have a problem.

Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: Russ79] #6385165 07/28/16 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: Russ79
The only reason the bucks in east Texas rarely reached 13" was before the AR's if it had horns it went down. Because of the rule we are having to let them walk and with some age they will exceed 13". Do we have bucks under 13" that need to die? The answer is yes, but what I have seen is that the AR's are working.


IMO, it will some time to see if the 13-inch restriction has created any high grading of the herd. High grading occurs when only deer with a certain characteristic are removed, while leaving deer without that characteristic. Many have said that it's impossible to high-grade in a free ranging environment. However, the MDWFP saw it happen in Mississippi after implementing a four-point rule that allowed hunters to take the best of their younger bucks, while protecting every spike. I'm sure that failure, along with research results here in Texas, is what led the TPWD to create the 13-inch rule to protect that same class of deer that is left unprotected with points-based restrictions. Still, common sense would point that high grading would still be possible if you protect deer with ANY specific characteristic, in this case, that being narrow-racked deer. To remedy that, the TPWD took the position that hunters should take the lesser spikes, as these are the deer that are likely to lag their peers in developing wide racks.

Yes, before the 13-inch rule, hunters in East Texas did not see as many wide racked bucks. However, we also NEVER saw any tall, antelope-looking deer that we weren't allowed to harvest.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6385433 07/28/16 04:44 AM
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That's because you never saw mature bucks narrow or wide like you do now.


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Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #6385548 07/28/16 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pitchfork Predator
That's because you never saw mature bucks narrow or wide like you do now.


No arguement there. We were taking more younger bucks without regard to what type of rack they might develop in future years. Now we're taking just one class of deer while leaving and protecting the other. Not sure that's a good thing. It would seem logical that a solution that would allow hunters to take ANY older buck would remedy that. I guess I'll always be in that group of hunters who doesn't like having to pass on a deer that "needs killing".


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6385577 07/28/16 01:25 PM
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It's about time we had an AR thread.

Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6385672 07/28/16 02:58 PM
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I'm in that group as well Dan. Hopefully they will enhance the program in the future to allow mature bucks that don't meet the 13 to be harvested. up


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Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6385705 07/28/16 03:25 PM
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Yes, before the 13-inch rule, hunters in East Texas did not see as many wide racked bucks. However, we also NEVER saw any tall, antelope-looking deer that we weren't allowed to harvest.

Texas Dan, probably never saw those type deer because they never got old enough to get to that point before they were in someone's freezer.

Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #6385739 07/28/16 03:49 PM
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The problem would be devising a way to define "mature" in a way that is enforceable and obvious for "inexperienced" hunters.

Otherwise the GWs will always be dealing with the "well, he looked mature to me" senario.

Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6385773 07/28/16 04:08 PM
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I'm interested in what others from the original six counties that had the antler restrictions implemented (I believe back in 2003) have to say regarding Dan's high grading concerns. In my area I have not seen an increase of mature narrow rack bucks, whereas the quality and age structure of bucks are much better since the restrictions were put in place. It's not a perfect rule (nor do I think there ever will be one), but I still think the good far outweighs any bad.

Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: rabbit_jack] #6385785 07/28/16 04:14 PM
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I have a friend who owns property in Colorado County, one of the original counties. He is very pleased with the results in terms of maturity and qualityy of the herd. Yes, there will be some narrow mature bucks, but as you say, the good far outweighs the bad.

Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #6385812 07/28/16 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pitchfork Predator
I'm in that group as well Dan. Hopefully they will enhance the program in the future to allow mature bucks that don't meet the 13 to be harvested. up


That sounds like a good plan but I can't see it happening. Mature buck scratch

Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6385891 07/28/16 05:55 PM
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I hunt in east Polk county, which is right next to Tyler county. You should have no issues seeing a legal buck, and if you are patient, you very well may see one 3 1/2 years old or older, which is what we really want anyway. I was never in favor of the 13" rule. With that said, I can see a serious improvement in the deer in and around Polk county area and really, all of east Texas for that matter. I feel like if "TPWD" expects us to judge a buck to be 13 inches, then they could trust us to judge a deer to be mature as well and let us cull those narrow rack bucks. I would also like to see them stop the option of taking 3 mature bucks in 3 different counties, and go back to taking just 2 bucks, regardless of what counties they come from, and leave the option open on whether or not they are spikes or mature bucks(13 inch). Good luck with your new lease.

Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6385957 07/28/16 07:10 PM
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I heard from our warden that they are considering raising the limit in 2017 to 2 bucks, one of which could be less than 13". Some kind of special tag would be required and you would have to take the deer to a check station for ageing. Just a rumor. Don't know if it's true or not.


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Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6386161 07/28/16 09:44 PM
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I hunt or have hunted in 6 AR counties over the last 10 years and have never seen a mature buck <13" wide.


Originally Posted By: cameron00
If I send my neighbors a text and ask them to give me feedback on my lawn and plant rye into a giant dong pattern, I'm probably going to get some less than positive feedback. Same goes here.
Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6386931 07/29/16 02:11 PM
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I have a small property i hunt on and the quality has gone up but the numbers have dropped dramitcly. Dont know if its the new rules or the bag limit to blame. Used to see deer on every hunt now lucky to see a deer. Took my biggest deer to date last year but was also the ONLY deer i saw. Our county went from 1 buck in gun season and does only in archery to 1 mature buck over 13in wide and a spike and 2 does. Think the bag limit should be lowered to one buck and one doe in my opinion.


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Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6386973 07/29/16 02:40 PM
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Agreed Hoyt, it might help the areas that have genetics and numbers to survive. It's crippling to areas that didn't have the numbers to begin with.

Their data sucks, they are pretty much guessing with the small sample sizes for most of the counties.

For those that say AGE, the initial bucks born under antler restrictions have died of old age now, AGE is not the only answer. When you have low numbers, small genetics,...raising the bag limits, killing every spike, and taking only the best deer that can pass on genetics, is hurting.


Then go to west texas, where we see 10 bucks every sitting, including spikes and mutants, and it's a one buck county, because ????

Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: BuckFodder] #6387020 07/29/16 03:28 PM
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Vernon i couldnt agree more and tpwd sure aint listening. I have written letters and called and done with all that. I have seen bigger bucks under the new laws and regs but at the rate we are going with the bag limit it aint gonna last much longer im afraid. When the fist year of the rules were in enacted it was nothing to see several does and young bucks at a sitting and now lucky to see one deer at a sitting says to me something is wrong and tpwd needs to at least check it out.


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Re: Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest [Re: jshouse] #6388905 07/31/16 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: jshouse
I hunt or have hunted in 6 AR counties over the last 10 years and have never seen a mature buck <13" wide.


Cracks me up that people are worried about creating a mutant narrow racked herd.

As much as I hate govt regulations, AR's work. Because knuckleheads have no self discipline.


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