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Hypothetical question
#6377055
07/21/16 01:17 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 91,416
bill oxner
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THF Celebrity
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OP
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I got the following question by private message. I replied as best as I could. I've to change it up a little and post it on this forum as a hypothetical question. I'll post my reply later, but you go first. How would you reply?
"Hi bill, struggling with my GWP puppy pointing.
Bill,
Im trying to get my GWP puppy to pick up pointing, it's 7 months old. im really struggling even with scouring the internet resources. I have it on a good pace for her retrieving, but retriever training is all i know. I know you to be a resource when it comes to upland training. I wanted to ask if you wouldn't mind giving me some of your time on whether through pm here or meeting up. I live down the road in lake Wharton. Thank you for your time.
Sincerely"
Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377067
07/21/16 01:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,059
MS1454
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Way too little information to give them a response.
What are they doing to try to get it to point? How is it reacting? How long have they been trying, when how was the puppy introduced to birds? Etc etc.
I'll take a Black Female every time.
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377239
07/21/16 03:20 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,183
Mike Honcho
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
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I reached out to Bill. To give more detail. Quail and pheasant is what id like her to point. Now i have no knowledge about upland dogs, ive always had labs. It was explained to me that the upland dog whether draht, gsp, etc once they kow how to point will point anything??? She only wants to grab/retrieve the quail. Ive been trying for last 2 months i got her at 3.5 months. Frozen quail on a string attached to a fishing pole. Ive seen this work with my friends gsp's and within days they were pointing and holding it (awesome sight). I plan on building a quail coop this weekend to have live birds but dont know if it is the right approach.
“Two things that define an individual what you do when you have everything, and what you do when you have nothing."
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377242
07/21/16 03:23 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,183
Mike Honcho
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One other thing, what i do know is retriever training, not a pro, but enough to have get my dogs to do what i need them to. So i have been really been working that because she has little interest in the pointing.
“Two things that define an individual what you do when you have everything, and what you do when you have nothing."
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377289
07/21/16 04:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,059
MS1454
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Kevin gave me an article he wrote based what a setter trainer I believed was using and with good success. If you have his information still, I would ask him for it.
Sight pointing is crap. Wings on a string etc. Dogs hunt by scent not sight.if you are still using frozen birds I would stop. Quail coop? I would use pigeons as they are much stronger flyers and easier to keep. I have one that's small if you are interested in buying it.
I would honestly stop all training and just hunt the pup this season. Let the wild birds teach him.
I'll take a Black Female every time.
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377399
07/21/16 05:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 246
dune2218
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 246 |
Jorge ------ you have been teaching your dog to run and retrieve a bird,,now all of a sudden you want them to hold still and point--------- sounds to me like you have taught them NOT to point. I would suspect the dog is in a mental state of total confusion. I partially agree with ms1454------ stop all training --------- EXCEPT I would teach him to "whoa".
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377421
07/21/16 05:18 PM
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 246
dune2218
Woodsman
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Woodsman
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"" Quail and pheasant is what id like her to point. Now i have no knowledge about upland dogs, ive always had labs. It was explained to me that the upland dog whether draht, gsp, etc once they kow how to point will point anything???"" All of the bird hunters on here are smiling ------ you cant pick what birds he points --- nature has assigned the scent to some birds and not others ------ no one really understands how it works,, but it is a fact. Why would he point a woodcock but not a blue jay --------- there is no answer, but it is a fact. I suspect you might want to send you dog to a professional trainer if you are serious about having a pointing dog.
I"m almost wondering if Bill made this up---- hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm the more I think about it ----------------------
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377433
07/21/16 05:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,183
Mike Honcho
THF Trophy Hunter
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I completely see how the retriever training and then trying to get maddie to hold a point is very conflicting.
One of the reasons i decided to go with the drathaar was how the breed was explained to me. I was told you can teach this thing to retrieve, blood trail, point, and prey drive simultaneously. Maybe my excitement and naivete led me to believe that all i had to do was "train". I will say she has a great nose and uses it well. Her blood trailing is coming on well for my expectations.
In my fear id hae a good dog not meet its potential i reverted to what i know in retriever training that way she at least had one tool.
Thank yall for your insight. I worry that she will be nearly a year before she will see wild birds at the ranch and she will have zero clue because ive failed her in my job training.
“Two things that define an individual what you do when you have everything, and what you do when you have nothing."
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377442
07/21/16 05:27 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 91,416
bill oxner
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This way my first reply.
#3511311 - Today at 07:05 AM Re: Hi bill, struggling with my drathaar puppy pointing. bill oxner THF Celebrity
Registered: 11/03/09 Posts: 29616 Loc: Richmond Be patient. This is the wrong time of the year to worry about pointing. She will start. Wait until the fall and run her on wild bobwhite quail. I'll be glad to help you in the fall. _________________________ Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill
Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377459
07/21/16 05:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,059
MS1454
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I'll take a Black Female every time.
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377463
07/21/16 05:42 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,152
DoubleB20
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In my mind, pointing is related to prey drive. The dog has to learn that rushing in results in bird flying away. Look beyond the action you want to what causes the action in the first place. So you either need wild birds that won't tolerate the pressure and leave quickly or you need to resort to remote controlled launchers. Your dog is young, I wouldn't worry about for a few months.
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377480
07/21/16 05:55 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,183
Mike Honcho
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Thanks yall. Im out of my element completely and not knowing causes me to fear im failing my pup.
So is it correct in believing that pointing is more instinctual than a trained process? I guess developed vs trained? My point of reference are labs and retrieving. They naturally retrieve but to get them to go and do what you want. training is essential to create a steady and well handled dog like casting and running blinds.
“Two things that define an individual what you do when you have everything, and what you do when you have nothing."
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377484
07/21/16 06:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,183
Mike Honcho
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Id love to send my dog to a trainer, but a.) I love working with my dogs and would like to learn the upland dog side of things b.) Not really in the budget and unless a trainer would want to trade for an oryx hunt i cant quite commit to that expense at the moment.
“Two things that define an individual what you do when you have everything, and what you do when you have nothing."
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377532
07/21/16 06:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,067
mattyg06
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Jorge, there is a good book titled 'Training the Pointing Labrador' that I think would be a great read for you. It discusses a lot of the issues you are dealing with. Talks a lot about the different mentality of pointing vs retrieving from the trainers perspective. I had a friend read it who trained pointers for years and he said it was the best training book he has read.
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377600
07/21/16 07:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 20,892
Sniper John
gumshoe
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gumshoe
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Posts: 20,892 |
Exposure to live birds and teach whoa.
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377663
07/21/16 08:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 219
munoz
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jul 2012
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Would running the dog with a more experienced dog help in a case like this?
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: munoz]
#6377699
07/21/16 08:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 91,416
bill oxner
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Would running the dog with a more experienced dog help in a case like this? That was my second suggestion. It's a good way to start especially with pen raised birds. Put a broke dog on point and lead the pup up into the scent cone with a CC. Most will point. I think frozen birds will only confuse the pup at this stage.
Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377751
07/21/16 09:06 PM
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 22
Houghtonic
Light Foot
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Light Foot
Joined: Mar 2014
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The versatile pointers know the difference (by scent) between a live, unharmed bird, and an injured or dead bird. You have been teaching retrieving of dead birds and bumpers, which is good. I would assume the dog gets enjoyment out of retrieving dead birds and bumpers, but probably more enjoyment out of retrieving dead birds than bumpers. Like everyone else that read this thread, I am of the opinion the dog needs exposure to live birds to bring out pointing. A DD isn't supposed to point dead birds, only live ones, so to bring out the proper pointing behavior, you will need to use live birds. Sometimes you will see a cautious versatile point a cripple, but inherent genetics cause these dogs to pause for a sustained time at the scent of live birds. So it is easy enough for the dog to distinguish that it is supposed to retrieve the hurt and dead ones, but not cause the injury free ones to fly off once it knows where they are.
You may have to bring that genetic trait out a bit and that is what exposure can help do. I have a very high prey drive GSP that as a pup caught 3 quail (poor fliers and dizzied too hard) in a row at a hunt test and thus thought it had learned it could catch all birds. It's point was shortened to almost be imperceptible. I had to teach it the birds would fly off and that I wanted it to stay on point if I were to get a shot on it so it could get a bird in the mouth. Basically that we are a team working together to get that bird in its mouth and the dog working that solo will have zero luck. Took pigeons and quail in launchers, check cord for control, and teaching/reinforcing whoa, but the dog points nicely now and I'm working toward steady to shot and fall which is more an obedience thing than pure genetic trait.
I tend to go long on my responses, so I'll sum it up with "what Sniper John said".
Heath
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377830
07/21/16 09:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 20,892
Sniper John
gumshoe
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gumshoe
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 20,892 |
Has your dog been exposed to live birds before?
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: Sniper John]
#6377840
07/21/16 10:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 20,892
Sniper John
gumshoe
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gumshoe
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Here is one of my Dash's siblings being exposed to a pigeon on the table. Don't worry about the "point" at first. Find the prey drive and work on the whoa or as I use "wait".
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: Mike Honcho]
#6377863
07/21/16 10:28 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,068
NorthTXbirdhunter
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In my opinion, and I know there is a difference in opinion with some, the pup is too young to break YET. The pup needs to be on live birds for a while just knocking and chasing. Let him have some foolish fun for maybe for a month or two. Then attach a long check cord on him so you can stop him and stack him up at some point when you know that he has winded the bird. You know the pup is going to retrieve. You can work on that later. You have got to build the prey drive at this age and you can only do it with live birds. I would hold off on putting birds in launchers for now. Just let him knock them and chase them out of sight for now. The steadying process can start later this fall. Pigeons work great for this period of training. They will come back sometimes.
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: MS1454]
#6377892
07/21/16 10:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,864
blanked
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Kevin gave me an article he wrote based what a setter trainer I believed was using and with good success. If you have his information still, I would ask him for it.
Sight pointing is crap. Wings on a string etc. Dogs hunt by scent not sight.if you are still using frozen birds I would stop. Quail coop? I would use pigeons as they are much stronger flyers and easier to keep. I have one that's small if you are interested in buying it.
I would honestly stop all training and just hunt the pup this season. Let the wild birds teach him. This is spot on. And no discipline when hunting. Keep your mouth shut except for praise
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: blanked]
#6377903
07/21/16 11:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 91,416
bill oxner
OP
THF Celebrity
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OP
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Posts: 91,416 |
Kevin gave me an article he wrote based what a setter trainer I believed was using and with good success. If you have his information still, I would ask him for it.
Sight pointing is crap. Wings on a string etc. Dogs hunt by scent not sight.if you are still using frozen birds I would stop. Quail coop? I would use pigeons as they are much stronger flyers and easier to keep. I have one that's small if you are interested in buying it.
I would honestly stop all training and just hunt the pup this season. Let the wild birds teach him. This is spot on. And no discipline when hunting. Keep your mouth shut except for praise Keep your mouth shut is good advice. A pup goes into a trance when it is pointing or backing. You can creak the spell by talking.
Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6377959
07/22/16 12:02 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,183
Mike Honcho
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,183 |
Keep it coming!
No i havent put her on live birds, but going to finish my 6-8 bird coop tonight, and headed to roadside quail farm on Saturday to get some bob white. Well that was the plan, may need to find some pigeons.
So here are my follow up questions to responses.
A.) Should i shut down retrieving training? I have her steady till i give her release command. I could see where this is confusing her alot.
B.) Im interpreting the responses that she needs exposure not training to establish pointing, training is the answer to the obedience aspects of pointing. Such as being steady to shot, woah to point, not trying to catch them before they flush, etc. Am i interpreting this correctly?
C.) If it is recommended that i get live birds would i clip wings and release so she can go find? Or would i want to get a bird launcher and structure it, have a much more controlled setting? An avid upland guy told me to use live birds and tie water bottles to their legs so they dont fly far. Would this be an efficient means of training?
“Two things that define an individual what you do when you have everything, and what you do when you have nothing."
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Re: Hypothetical question
[Re: bill oxner]
#6378097
07/22/16 01:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,059
MS1454
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Is Benny still around?
A) No? The steadness training will come in handle with training steadyness down the road.
B) Correct!
C) For quail no I would not clip anything. They are fragile enough. I would get a launcher if you really want to intro birds now. I wouldnt tether anything unless it was a strong homer pigeon. A small quail will get caught I think with a bottle tied to it. Then your dog will catch it and then you will have a new set of issues to get past. There are many ways to plant quail. I would just plan them and watch them and your money fly away. That is way pigeons are suggested.
Do you know how much the roadside quail farm is charging these days?
I'll take a Black Female every time.
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