Where are pics of this pup?

Thanks MS1454, you have a drathaar correct, and if im not mistaken maddie's mom's mother? I got her from Josh Stevens outside Austin. If benny is who i spoke to then hes still around, and plenty. He quoted me $6/bobwhite.

Any recommendation on a no frills non remote launcher, on a budget.

Pics en route.

Here is my baby girl

Since there has been no exposure to live birds before I doubt you your dog has or will have a problem on the pointing side when you do. Get her on some birds and you should see the magic.

Stopping by my house is almost like a shortcut while driving to Roadside. You just catch hwy 36 north out of West Columbia, through Rosenberg.

I have a crate and a bird bag I will give you. Just tell Benie that you will have one of his crates for exchange. Mention my name. He will have them ready to go when you get there.

Dogs point when they learn they can't capture the prey. My recommendation lots of pigeons out of a release. Don't look for the dog to point, put the bird out in a launcher and release it when the dog gets close enough to know the bird is there. DON'T wait for a point. You want to frustrate the dog and teach him to be more cautious. Eventually he will come to learn that he can't rush in a capture the bird. Same thing can be done on wild birds, although in that you don't control the flush. People who try to train dogs to point by putting them on dead birds or holding them up with a check cord often get a dog that gets to close to the bird. You want the dog to come to understand that getting too close to the bird too fast means it flushes every time
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Spot on, Mundo.
Jorge, discontinue the retriever training until after she is steady on birds. You are confusing her as to what her job is.

Great looking pup!

I do have one and it's actually from Kevin.

Thanks bill, im calling the quail place today to let him know ill be there after lunch.

Everyone's input is appreciated, and its apparent there is great info being posted. Im now confused though. Earlier it was posted the retriever training would help in the handling of maddie. That made a lot os sense. Now its been posted not to and explained in detail that makes sense too. Im not wanting a debate i see both having merit, im confused. I know for labs guys have their preferred "system". Would this be an example of one system preference over another. Keep in mind i duck and dove hunt a lot so retrieving is equally important as pointing. Am i asking too much too fast? What sold me on the drathaar was the versatility and ability to be multi dimensional. I havent quite wrapped my brain around shutting her traininf down except for live birds. Do yall who train your pointers get birds enough so yall can do this everyday?

Thanks, i think she's a looker.

There are dozens of training methods and no end to the ways to apply them. Every training plan is different. As an owner trainer, build you a small library for reference. Watch any dvds and read the books in entirety. There are complete training programs that many use that may fit your goals. Write down your goals and develop or choose a training plan, timeline, or flow chart. Otherwise your training will become a confusing mess. You also want to have mentors and friends for advice or to help problem solve when you hit road blocks (THF). Your "system" is going to be unique in that your training a versatile dog. Training plans for an owner trainer are really training the owner more than the dog. There mostly is no right or wrong training method or plan for every dog and owner as most end up with the same outcome and no dog is the same. As one of the retriever trainers put it, "train the dog you see, not the dog you want" or something like that. As for training both pointing and retrieving at the same time. It just depends on you and on your dog. If you do both, pay attention to how it goes. If the dog or you get confused, back off one side of the training. If it works, keep going. My current dog I cross trained for everything in his first year with different short sessions every day. I was running AKC and HRC retriever tests, AKC pointer tests, AKC conformation, and NAVHDA all in the first year. There was a time when I was too inexperienced and with a dog that this would have been impossible. And I may not be able to with my next dog. "Train the dog I see" But I mostly believe in training both simultaneously if I have the dog for it. Not everyone is going to agree with that. Your goals may be very different than others and those giving advice. Some want an honest hunting dog or meat dog. Some want a Champion field trail dog. So a question like "should I stop retriever training" or any other training question is going to get very different answers from different people with different experiences and different goals and different training plans. IMHO, neither is necessarily a wrong or right answer.

A book I suggest for what your doing is the NAVHDA green book "Training and Care of the Versatile Hunting Dog. It is and easy read and will help answer some of your questions even if you don't use the training methods talked about in it. You also get this book with a NAVHDA membership which may be a good resource for you. Lonestar NAVHDA is in your area and should have group training days you can go to once the weather gets cooler.

One training scenario that incorporates both pointing and retrieving. The dog is my Dash's sister. Handlers are Adele Neupert and Lonnie Spell. We are using tip ups to hold the birds. In this one there are two birds placed. One is a pigeon and one has a quail. The tip ups used are similar to these. http://www.lcsupply.com/LCS-Tip-Up-Bird-Releaser/productinfo/TUBR/

The dog on lead has been walked into the scent cone until showing interest or pointing.


There is a ring on the lead close to the dog and the dog has been short staked to the ground. Adele has walked out front and kicking around in the grass. Then the tip up with the pigeon is stepped on releasing the bird. The pup jumps, is self corrected and can go nowhere. Bird flies away. There is no whoa or other command given. It is silent. The dog is learning through experience.


Adele continues to kick around the grass and the other tip up is stepped on to release the quail, the dog is learning sometimes there is another bird. The dog has already learned she can't chase it and already does not try to break as bad. This time the bird is shot.


The dog who already knows how to retrieve tries to break to retrieve, but still staked out and again self corrected.


The dog is allowed to retrieve on command, but on lead keeping the handler in control.


This would be one session within a progression of training. Note the collar on the dog is not being used. It just happened to be on the dog related to conditioning the dog to being comfortable wearing the Ecollar.

The Smith method works for me. Cracker had pointed a few wild birds in the spring. She had never seen a pen raised bird until I finished her whoa breaking. Here you go.

Use fresh caught pigeons over quail. As mentioned pen raise quail are weak flyers.

you get a another, I will take her

Jorge,

As others have said, make sure you have trained "whoa". For a retriever guy, it is a standing stay. If you have your dog retrieve anything, it should be done after he/she has been staying with "whoa". Yes, you can also train sit/stay for duck or dove hunting. Any retrieves should be done after the dog is released to fetch from "whoa" or "sit"...for now, I would focus on "whoa".

You definitely need live birds and they can be purchased out of season. There should be no more birds or wings on a stick. Quail or pigeons will work. Plant these birds and get your dog on a check cord. Once he/she bumps a couple of birds, and is held from chasing or retrieving, the pointing instincts should kick in. Note: there are a lot more elements involved in training a finished pointer.

BTW, below is a good resource for training a pointer. The book is old but I think it is well done:

https://www.amazon.com/Mastering-German-...erman+shorthair

Good stuff from Jay and related to his advice a couple things I did in my Dog's unique situation.

Note my wait/whoa was taught while still a little pup. "Wait" before allowed to eat, "Wait" to stop at every doorway when walking with me. From a pup he was not allowed to walk through a door until I gave an "ok". I just kept picking him up and putting him back at the doorway as many times as needed until he stayed there. When training with birds was started, the wait/whoa command was already learned from this. Then I removed the verbal command altogether, but can use it if the dog is over excited and needs a reminder or my bad it can come out when I am over excited too. At four years old when let outside Dash still always stops at the door and waits in a pointing like stance until I say "ok" or tap him on the head or I can walk outside and close the door without him busting out the door in front of me. So training that way has been very handy. I prefer my dog to hold and let me flush the bird, but with the "ok" I can let him flush if the situation calls for it. Not everyone will hunt this way. And wait and whoa sounds enough alike my dog knows no difference between them. Wait was just a more natural word for me.

Having a versatile dog and training for and running different kinds of hunt tests and different kinds of hunting during the same year, once even traveling from a retriever test to a pointer test in the same day. And training for the show ring at the same time as well. During obedience training I did not teach sit initially. I did not want to risk my dog sitting in the ring every time the handler stopped. Nor did I want to risk my young dog getting confused and sitting on point during a pointer or navhda test. For Junior and Started retriever tests, a dog is not required to sit so I put sit training off for a few months and just "waited" my dog at the line next to me instead of "sit" and if he did sit at the line, I let him and just said nothing. Same thing while Dove hunting that first year.

To all,

Thank you so much everyone's insight has given me a lot more assurance i wont fail maddie. Please keep any insight coming.

So i just picked up 6 bobwhite, and am really excited. Now i need to get a launcher. I plan on ordering the T.E. Scott manual launcher. Is this product worth the money or do i need to save up and go ahead and get a remote one?

I also am joining NAVHDA and getting the green book, and a few others recommend. In the mean time, im going to keep updating this thread as i know ill make some mistakes and hopefully the THF can be there to steer me in the right direction.

I sincerely appreciate the input. I was really getting discouraged.

So ive been spending all evening reading how to establish "woah"/"wait". I read all kinds of variations and this seemed like the best laid out approach. Please let me know if the barrel exercise is too soon. It looked like many of the dogs were her size.

After more reading here is the game plan and im keeping it flexible to how she responds.

Im gonna focus on Barrel work and placing quail in there transport cage and having her find them. Till my tip up cages get here.

I know this is not a yes or no answer to your question. If your serious, training should be done in a progression of goals or a training program, much like the flow chart posted in the force fetch thread in the gun dog forum. Some things might be trained simultaneously, but for the most part it is chronological where it is best not to jump around or jump ahead in your training program. So it just depends on your dog and where and how it fit's into your training program.

http://www.mnnavhda.com/Training/Whoa.htm

Here is my modified rabbit cage quail coop.

One thing is that quail will quickly become weak and won't that we'll after a few days. Not sure how you are going to plant them or use them but something to keep in mind.