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#6377055 - 07/21/16 08:17 AM Hypothetical question
bill oxner Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 32652
Loc: Richmond
I got the following question by private message. I replied as best as I could. I've to change it up a little and post it on this forum as a hypothetical question. I'll post my reply later, but you go first. How would you reply?


"Hi bill, struggling with my GWP puppy pointing.


Bill,

Im trying to get my GWP puppy to pick up pointing, it's 7 months old. im really struggling even with scouring the internet resources. I have it on a good pace for her retrieving, but retriever training is all i know. I know you to be a resource when it comes to upland training. I wanted to ask if you wouldn't mind giving me some of your time on whether through pm here or meeting up. I live down the road in lake Wharton. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely"
_________________________
Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill




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#6377067 - 07/21/16 08:25 AM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
MS1454 Online   content
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2703
Loc: Houston/Sealy
Way too little information to give them a response.

What are they doing to try to get it to point? How is it reacting? How long have they been trying, when how was the puppy introduced to birds? Etc etc.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.


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#6377239 - 07/21/16 10:20 AM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
jorge Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 3944
Loc: Lake Jackson, TX
I reached out to Bill. To give more detail. Quail and pheasant is what id like her to point. Now i have no knowledge about upland dogs, ive always had labs. It was explained to me that the upland dog whether draht, gsp, etc once they kow how to point will point anything??? She only wants to grab/retrieve the quail. Ive been trying for last 2 months i got her at 3.5 months. Frozen quail on a string attached to a fishing pole. Ive seen this work with my friends gsp's and within days they were pointing and holding it (awesome sight). I plan on building a quail coop this weekend to have live birds but dont know if it is the right approach.
_________________________
Jorge Sakai
South Texas Trophy Outfitters

Contact #: 210-837-6742
GEORGE.SAKAI@YAHOO.COM

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#6377242 - 07/21/16 10:23 AM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
jorge Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 3944
Loc: Lake Jackson, TX
One other thing, what i do know is retriever training, not a pro, but enough to have get my dogs to do what i need them to. So i have been really been working that because she has little interest in the pointing.
_________________________
Jorge Sakai
South Texas Trophy Outfitters

Contact #: 210-837-6742
GEORGE.SAKAI@YAHOO.COM

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#6377289 - 07/21/16 11:01 AM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
MS1454 Online   content
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2703
Loc: Houston/Sealy
Kevin gave me an article he wrote based what a setter trainer I believed was using and with good success. If you have his information still, I would ask him for it.

Sight pointing is crap. Wings on a string etc. Dogs hunt by scent not sight.if you are still using frozen birds I would stop. Quail coop? I would use pigeons as they are much stronger flyers and easier to keep. I have one that's small if you are interested in buying it.

I would honestly stop all training and just hunt the pup this season. Let the wild birds teach him.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.


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#6377399 - 07/21/16 12:07 PM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
dune2218 Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 02/09/16
Posts: 246
Loc: Temple, tx
Jorge ------ you have been teaching your dog to run and retrieve a bird,,now all of a sudden you want them to hold still and point--------- sounds to me like you have taught them NOT to point. I would suspect the dog is in a mental state of total confusion. I partially agree with ms1454------ stop all training --------- EXCEPT I would teach him to "whoa".
_________________________
Donald ------ the only real/knowledgeable bird/duck hunter on this site.

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#6377421 - 07/21/16 12:18 PM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
dune2218 Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 02/09/16
Posts: 246
Loc: Temple, tx
"" Quail and pheasant is what id like her to point. Now i have no knowledge about upland dogs, ive always had labs. It was explained to me that the upland dog whether draht, gsp, etc once they kow how to point will point anything???""
All of the bird hunters on here are smiling ------ you cant pick what birds he points --- nature has assigned the scent to some birds and not others ------ no one really understands how it works,, but it is a fact. Why would he point a woodcock but not a blue jay --------- there is no answer, but it is a fact. I suspect you might want to send you dog to a professional trainer if you are serious about having a pointing dog.

I"m almost wondering if Bill made this up---- hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm the more I think about it ----------------------
_________________________
Donald ------ the only real/knowledgeable bird/duck hunter on this site.

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#6377433 - 07/21/16 12:25 PM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
jorge Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 3944
Loc: Lake Jackson, TX
I completely see how the retriever training and then trying to get maddie to hold a point is very conflicting.

One of the reasons i decided to go with the drathaar was how the breed was explained to me. I was told you can teach this thing to retrieve, blood trail, point, and prey drive simultaneously. Maybe my excitement and naivete led me to believe that all i had to do was "train". I will say she has a great nose and uses it well. Her blood trailing is coming on well for my expectations.

In my fear id hae a good dog not meet its potential i reverted to what i know in retriever training that way she at least had one tool.

Thank yall for your insight. I worry that she will be nearly a year before she will see wild birds at the ranch and she will have zero clue because ive failed her in my job training.
_________________________
Jorge Sakai
South Texas Trophy Outfitters

Contact #: 210-837-6742
GEORGE.SAKAI@YAHOO.COM

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#6377442 - 07/21/16 12:27 PM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
bill oxner Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 32652
Loc: Richmond
This way my first reply.



#3511311 - Today at 07:05 AM Re: Hi bill, struggling with my drathaar puppy pointing.
bill oxner
THF Celebrity

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 29616
Loc: Richmond
Be patient. This is the wrong time of the year to worry about pointing. She will start. Wait until the fall and run her on wild bobwhite quail. I'll be glad to help you in the fall.
_________________________
Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill
_________________________
Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill




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#6377459 - 07/21/16 12:38 PM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
MS1454 Online   content
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2703
Loc: Houston/Sealy
Good advise bill
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.


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#6377463 - 07/21/16 12:42 PM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
DoubleB20 Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 3052
Loc: Whiskey Flats, TX
In my mind, pointing is related to prey drive. The dog has to learn that rushing in results in bird flying away. Look beyond the action you want to what causes the action in the first place. So you either need wild birds that won't tolerate the pressure and leave quickly or you need to resort to remote controlled launchers. Your dog is young, I wouldn't worry about for a few months.
_________________________
Texas Reds

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#6377480 - 07/21/16 12:55 PM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
jorge Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 3944
Loc: Lake Jackson, TX
Thanks yall. Im out of my element completely and not knowing causes me to fear im failing my pup.

So is it correct in believing that pointing is more instinctual than a trained process? I guess developed vs trained? My point of reference are labs and retrieving. They naturally retrieve but to get them to go and do what you want. training is essential to create a steady and well handled dog like casting and running blinds.
_________________________
Jorge Sakai
South Texas Trophy Outfitters

Contact #: 210-837-6742
GEORGE.SAKAI@YAHOO.COM

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#6377484 - 07/21/16 01:00 PM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
jorge Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 3944
Loc: Lake Jackson, TX
Id love to send my dog to a trainer, but a.) I love working with my dogs and would like to learn the upland dog side of things b.) Not really in the budget and unless a trainer would want to trade for an oryx hunt i cant quite commit to that expense at the moment.
_________________________
Jorge Sakai
South Texas Trophy Outfitters

Contact #: 210-837-6742
GEORGE.SAKAI@YAHOO.COM

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#6377532 - 07/21/16 01:35 PM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
mattyg06 Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 04/22/14
Posts: 430
Jorge, there is a good book titled 'Training the Pointing Labrador' that I think would be a great read for you. It discusses a lot of the issues you are dealing with. Talks a lot about the different mentality of pointing vs retrieving from the trainers perspective. I had a friend read it who trained pointers for years and he said it was the best training book he has read.

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#6377600 - 07/21/16 02:26 PM Re: Hypothetical question [Re: bill oxner]
Sniper John Online   happy

gumshoe

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 16302
Loc: North Texas
Exposure to live birds and teach whoa.
_________________________

"Onward up many a frightening creek, though your arms may get sore and your sneakers may leak. Oh! The places you'll go!" ~ Dr. Seuss

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