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H20 case fill question on Quickload
#6376604
07/21/16 01:07 AM
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TackDriver
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I am stumped with a reading on QL for my 7mm Mag. I used the Berger 140 grain VLD under 66.7 grains RL19 for a chronograph reading of 3250 fps this morning. I have a 25.5 inch barrel. The QL program default reading for H20 is 82 grains, so I changed it to 88 after the average of weighing 5 cases. I weighed each unsized fired empty brass ( 5) for a final weight of 219.5 grains and 5 fired unsized cases of H20 and ave weight is 307.8 and final weight after calculations is 88.4 grains of H20, so i entered that in the tab in place of the program's reading which was 82 grains. Now I added the charge weight, and other data. Now my velocity is way lower by 220 fps slower than my chrono reading and 100 fps slower than the program's 82 H20 reading. I tried the same weighing method with my 6.5 Creed and 6.5 x 284 and reading is just off by .4 to .6 grain of H20 which is normal. Why is the 7 Mag reading off by 6 grains? Could someone help me with this issue? Please check the link, Thanks http://imgur.com/a/fMbWx
Last edited by Big Stan; 07/21/16 01:07 AM.
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6376614
07/21/16 01:21 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
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ChadTRG42
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You're using a fired case, which has expanded to your chamber. If you size the brass down, it will reduce internal capacity and reduce the water weight. Also, don't use average weights on the brass. Use exact water weight amounts, and they should all be similar. QL velocity data gets you in the ball park. I use the velocity data as a guide. I have seen it off in some caliber and bullet combo's when I have chronograph readings to know my exact fps.
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6376619
07/21/16 01:27 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
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kmon11
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Spot on as usual Chad QL predicts extremely well in some cases, not so much in others. The way to verify is with a chronograph, if you don't have one shoot at distance, measure the drop and then use a ballistic calculator to find the velocity.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6376622
07/21/16 01:30 AM
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RiverRider
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Water capacity is supposed to be measured in an unsized, fireformed case.
The way I check water capacity is to select 10 random cases and find the average case weight, and then find a single case that is as close to the average weight as possible and then find the water capacity of that particular case. Works fine.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6376635
07/21/16 01:39 AM
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TackDriver
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I thought the H20 capacity is using a fired case with the spent primer in it.
I did the same with the 6.5 Creedmore and the 6.5 x 284, and difference is just .4 to .6 of a grain compared to 6 grains with the 7 Mag. It's way off.
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6376657
07/21/16 01:58 AM
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RiverRider
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I thought the H20 capacity is using a fired case with the spent primer in it.
I did the same with the 6.5 Creedmore and the 6.5 x 284, and difference is just .4 to .6 of a grain compared to 6 grains with the 7 Mag. It's way off. That IS correct, but I could only guess as to the cause of the discrepancy you're seeing. Could be the actual burn rate of the powder lot you're using, the temperature at which you're working, or something about your rifle. Or it could be that QL doesn't predict certain combinations with the 7 Mag so well.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6376665
07/21/16 02:00 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
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kmon11
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RR thanks for the correction, been a while since I read that part of the users guide. Page 64 in the users guide with the version I have.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6376685
07/21/16 02:13 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,506
kmon11
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I thought the H20 capacity is using a fired case with the spent primer in it.
I did the same with the 6.5 Creedmore and the 6.5 x 284, and difference is just .4 to .6 of a grain compared to 6 grains with the 7 Mag. It's way off. Various cases will have differing capacities and same manufacture lot to lot will often have differing case capacities. Reloading data manuals have what manufacture case was used in the loads. Most I recall being different that I have loaded were for 45-70 with Remington and Winchester cases, this was before I had QL but one brand case would hold IIRC 6 grains more powder than the other. Was loading some light plinking lead bullet loads and the difference in powder when charging the cases was very noticeable. Didn't have many of one so trashed them.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6376771
07/21/16 03:05 AM
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TackDriver
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Is there a list of Burning rate factor Ba for Quickload? I would like to set up the propellant table.
Last edited by Big Stan; 07/21/16 03:06 AM.
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6376923
07/21/16 10:50 AM
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RiverRider
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If you are good at working with files, you can make a copy of the file that holds all the powder data and rename it something like "my powders" and then edit the burn rate factor and save it. You will then be able to have the program run using your edited powder file.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: RiverRider]
#6377087
07/21/16 01:38 PM
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J.G.
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6377157
07/21/16 02:24 PM
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ChadTRG42
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Interesting. I've always used a sized case. If I'm loading for multiple rifles, or for a large line of my 308 Win ammo, I use the sized cases to keep the external dimensions the same, therefore giving me the difference in internal volume for each case. There is a base line for minimum SAAMI chamber specs. But with different chambers cut between min and max, it can vary. Chambers can be cut to max or run a tight match chamber. If you run a sized case, this will keep it a known dimension. All of my water weights have been with a sized case. I've found it does work very well.
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#6377531
07/21/16 06:35 PM
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TackDriver
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Interesting. I've always used a sized case. If I'm loading for multiple rifles, or for a large line of my 308 Win ammo, I use the sized cases to keep the external dimensions the same, therefore giving me the difference in internal volume for each case. There is a base line for minimum SAAMI chamber specs. But with different chambers cut between min and max, it can vary. Chambers can be cut to max or run a tight match chamber. If you run a sized case, this will keep it a known dimension. All of my water weights have been with a sized case. I've found it does work very well. Chad, did you full size the case or neck size? I assume its full size in order to bring it to the same external dimensions.
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: RiverRider]
#6377540
07/21/16 06:39 PM
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TackDriver
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If you are good at working with files, you canake a copy of the file that holds all the powder data and rename it something like "my powders" and then edit the burn rate factor and save it. You will then be able to have the program run using your edited powder file. I am just a tad confused on the editing the burn rate factor. When I change the powder, let's say from RL22 to H4350, the Ba rate factor changes. I thought the number for the burn rate factor is a "label" number for the powder selected. If I edit the burn rate factor, then it won't be H4350 anymore, but some other unknown powder? Could you please explain on edit to what? Thanks
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6377747
07/21/16 09:01 PM
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RiverRider
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There is a single file that contains all the power data. This is what a small portion of that file looks like: "Accurate Solo 1000 ","4250","1.2210","1.590","4.8000","1.8970","0.119","1.1795","0.510","","","","","","","","","","","","15JAN04"
"Accurate Nitro 100 ","4890","1.2080","1.510","4.8333","1.2000","0.108","1.1253","0.480","","","","","","","","","","","AANI100.jpg","15JAN04"
"Accurate Solo 1250 ","4070","1.2270","1.400","3.5714","0.1487","0.379","1.3042","0.550","","","","","","","","","","","","15JAN04"
"Accurate No.2 ","4530","1.2110","1.130","3.4524","-0.4000","0.112","1.0371","0.610","","","","","","","","","","","AA_#02.jpg","15JAN04"
"Accurate No.5 ","4500","1.2160","1.590","2.5041","0.0438","0.156","1.0922","0.950","","","","","","","","","","","AANo5.jpg","15JAN04"
"Accurate No.7 ","4160","1.2300","1.570","1.4180","1.8616","0.286","1.4655","0.985","","","","","","","","","","","AANo7.jpg","22MAR06"
"Accurate No.9 ","4060","1.2270","1.570","1.3429","1.0833","0.283","1.3492","0.976","","","","","","","","","","","AANo9.jpg","15JAN04" For Accurate No.5, as an example, the burn rate is 2.5041 which is the fourth value for that powder. The path to the file is C:/Users/public/public documents/Quickload/data/powders. In the "powders" folder is a file named "qloadfw.pro" which will open like a text file. In this case, if I determine that my particular lot of Accurate No.5's burn rate is actually closer to 2.4900, then I can edit the burn rate factor to that value and save the file with this change. QL would then call up the edited value whenever I select Accurate No.5. It is best to make a copy of the original qloadfw.pro as it is installed, and name it something like "mypowders.pro" or even "editedpowders.pro," and save it in the same folder, then you'll be able to run QL off your new file OR the original file. If this looks extremely complicated or it doesn't make sense to you, then you probably should not fool with it. Just operate the software the way the manual says to do it.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6377856
07/21/16 10:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
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blackcoal
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The Greatest Enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.--Stephen Hawking
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: RiverRider]
#6378003
07/22/16 12:38 AM
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Posts: 1,100
TackDriver
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There is a single file that contains all the power data. This is what a small portion of that file looks like: "Accurate Solo 1000 ","4250","1.2210","1.590","4.8000","1.8970","0.119","1.1795","0.510","","","","","","","","","","","","15JAN04"
"Accurate Nitro 100 ","4890","1.2080","1.510","4.8333","1.2000","0.108","1.1253","0.480","","","","","","","","","","","AANI100.jpg","15JAN04"
"Accurate Solo 1250 ","4070","1.2270","1.400","3.5714","0.1487","0.379","1.3042","0.550","","","","","","","","","","","","15JAN04"
"Accurate No.2 ","4530","1.2110","1.130","3.4524","-0.4000","0.112","1.0371","0.610","","","","","","","","","","","AA_#02.jpg","15JAN04"
"Accurate No.5 ","4500","1.2160","1.590","2.5041","0.0438","0.156","1.0922","0.950","","","","","","","","","","","AANo5.jpg","15JAN04"
"Accurate No.7 ","4160","1.2300","1.570","1.4180","1.8616","0.286","1.4655","0.985","","","","","","","","","","","AANo7.jpg","22MAR06"
"Accurate No.9 ","4060","1.2270","1.570","1.3429","1.0833","0.283","1.3492","0.976","","","","","","","","","","","AANo9.jpg","15JAN04" For Accurate No.5, as an example, the burn rate is 2.5041 which is the fourth value for that powder. The path to the file is C:/Users/public/public documents/Quickload/data/powders. In the "powders" folder is a file named "qloadfw.pro" which will open like a text file. In this case, if I determine that my particular lot of Accurate No.5's burn rate is actually closer to 2.4900, then I can edit the burn rate factor to that value and save the file with this change. QL would then call up the edited value whenever I select Accurate No.5. It is best to make a copy of the original qloadfw.pro as it is installed, and name it something like "mypowders.pro" or even "editedpowders.pro," and save it in the same folder, then you'll be able to run QL off your new file OR the original file. If this looks extremely complicated or it doesn't make sense to you, then you probably should not fool with it. Just operate the software the way the manual says to do it. How can I tell which number to choose? What do i look out for?
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6378052
07/22/16 01:04 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
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RiverRider
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"Accurate No.5 ","4500","1.2160","1.590","2.5041","0.0438","0.156","1.0922","0.950","","","","","","","","","","","AANo5.jpg","15JAN04" First, be sure you know WHY you're changing burn rate. I am not so sure this is the answer to the main question in this thread, but I'll tell you how to do this. In your main window for QL, select the powder of interest. Look at the Burn Rate Factor (Ba) and write it down. Then open the new copy of the powder file through the path I gave (some operating systems may have a different but very similar path). Find your powder in the list and look at the row of values to the right. All those values are the ones that show in the different fields of your powder window. Change the one that is the exact match to what you've been seeing in the Ba field---do NOT remove ANYTHING else from the row of values. Just edit the Ba value, then save the file but BE SURE you are only editing the copy of the powder file which you have renamed. When you go to your main window in QL, click on "Data: Add, Change, Load, Save" and go to "Propellant data," and from there select "Load a powder file." A new window opens and on the left side you will see the name of the original powder file and the copied-renamed-edited file. Highlight the name of your new powder file, then click OK. That's all there is to it. When you select the powder you edited in the dropdown, you'll see your new Ba factor in the Ba field.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6378057
07/22/16 01:08 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,506
kmon11
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If you are good at working with files, you canake a copy of the file that holds all the powder data and rename it something like "my powders" and then edit the burn rate factor and save it. You will then be able to have the program run using your edited powder file. I am just a tad confused on the editing the burn rate factor. When I change the powder, let's say from RL22 to H4350, the Ba rate factor changes. I thought the number for the burn rate factor is a "label" number for the powder selected. If I edit the burn rate factor, then it won't be H4350 anymore, but some other unknown powder? Could you please explain on edit to what? Thanks Burn rates usually are not adjusted very much in value, adjustment is mostly for lot to lot and the way to match that up is get all things you can measure spot on in the entry points, shoot it across chronograph then adjust burn rate to match. Or at least that is how I understand most use the Ba adjustment. Then you have burn rate kinda reverse find and accurate for your lot of powder.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6378160
07/22/16 02:24 AM
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RiverRider
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Kmon has pointed out a very important detail...you MUST learn to adjust burn rate the way the user manual describes, or else you will be spending hours trying to accomplish what should take only minutes to do.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6378884
07/22/16 07:54 PM
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TackDriver
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Thanks for trying to help me understand it, but its complicated for me as of now. I may have to go to the user manual and read the step by step instructions. As of now, i'll just stick to what I know,,,but not much as you folks.
Do I adjust the burn rate until it matches the "velocity" of my chronograph load?
Last edited by Big Stan; 07/22/16 07:56 PM.
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6379980
07/23/16 08:48 PM
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TackDriver
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I think I may have a understanding what you are trying to explain. I have the sheet with the OBT vs Barrel Length with 7 nodes on them, example if my QL velocity currently says 3175 and my chrono velocity is 3280, then I change the Ba number , let's say 0.5187 to 0.5390 until my QL velocity is 3280 , the same as my chrono speed, then I look at the Barrel Time 10% PMax to muzzle on QL, and let's say it is 1.3442 on QL and my Excel sheet says on node #6 is 1.883, then I increase my powder charge weight on QL to increase the OBT from 1.3442 until it gets to 1.883 ish?? I hope this is how its done, let me know. Thanks for your help.
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: TackDriver]
#6382418
07/25/16 10:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
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RiverRider
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I think that's more or less the way it would be done, Stan. The thing is, when you have such a large discrepancy between predicted and actual velocities, I would want to figure out WHY before stepping out. I've come to rely on QL quite a bit, but when things don't add up it's time to get very, very cautious.
One thing that complicates matching up to the Ba factor is the fact that the default Weighting factor may or may not be right for each cartridge in the QL database. Some insist that the weighting factors built in to the program are fine, but some of them look very questionable to me. On this, I have NO advice to give.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: H20 case fill question on Quickload
[Re: RiverRider]
#6382775
07/26/16 02:58 AM
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TackDriver
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I think that's more or less the way it would be done, Stan. The thing is, when you have such a large discrepancy between predicted and actual velocities, I would want to figure out WHY before stepping out. I've come to rely on QL quite a bit, but when things don't add up it's time to get very, very cautious.
One thing that complicates matching up to the Ba factor is the fact that the default Weighting factor may or may not be right for each cartridge in the QL database. Some insist that the weighting factors built in to the program are fine, but some of them look very questionable to me. On this, I have NO advice to give. I agree, its why I will work up till I find pressure while I work up to the maximum node. There are two nodes for this rifle, one is a slow node and one high node close to max. That node exceeds the max loads between 4 manuals which are 67.5 to 70 grains. The node is 70.2 grains of RL 22. It's where I'll be cautious going there, or I'll go to a different powder.
Last edited by Big Stan; 07/26/16 03:00 AM.
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