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#6370862 - 07/15/16 11:52 PM Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls
chital_shikari Offline
Minor in training

Registered: 08/03/11
Posts: 11387
Loc: Katy, TX
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ultra-long-range.htm

Since I am now the resident expert on Long Ranging, courtesy the First and Finest of THF grin
LOL jk jk. (I really am kidding here. Don't be triggered or get your panties all twisted.)

I do remember reading on here that the .270 is not the go-to for long range hunting or shooting and that might-is-right, magnums are the bigger fandom. Mr. Hawks here has a compelling argument.

Jokes aside, I don't know what to make of this piece. Anyone who won't get on the soap box for/against 270s, 7mm's, 6.5's, 300s, or 308s for that matter, care to explain it to me? Or at least your analysis.

Here's what I get: unless you're shooting 1000yd+ steel/competition, a 270 will get you by. I might be dead-wrong, so help me out here.


Edited by chital_shikari (07/15/16 11:56 PM)
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#6370905 - 07/16/16 06:28 AM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: chital_shikari]
charlesb Offline
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Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 1408
Loc: West Texas mountains
"Rifles and cartridges suitable for shooting medium size big game at ranges much beyond 300 yards are relatively few. Shooters with the experience and ability to take advantage of these rifles and cartridges are even fewer."

Chuck is talking about hunting cartridges, used by hunters. - So his article directly addresses the intended audience here on the Texas Hunting Forum.

This is one reason why his mention of maximum point blank range figures are particularly relevant here.

His observations and advice are right on the money and it is true. - The 270 Winchester shooting 130 grain bullets is an excellent choice for long range hunting shots out to and slightly past 300 yards. He does not mention anything about unsportsman-like shots at ranges far beyond the capability of almost all hunters in his article, much less encourage that particular type of behavior among inexperienced hunters, the ones most likely to find the idea of lobbing projectiles at game animals from extreme ranges to be fascinating.

Experienced sportsmen know that lobbing projectiles from extreme ranges is no substitute for basic hunting skills that will get you within reasonable shooting range of a game animal.

The long-range shooting enthusiasts who insist upon hanging out here on the Texas Hunting Forum instead of one of the more appropriate long range shooting forums will of course disagree, and tell us why Chuck is way off base from their perspective. How well those arguments will apply to Texas hunters will be up to the readers here on the Texas Hunters Forum to individually decide.


Edited by charlesb (07/16/16 06:57 AM)
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#6370922 - 07/16/16 07:10 AM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: chital_shikari]
WileyCoyote Online   content
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Registered: 09/01/04
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popcorn

..this ought to be fun and a good excercise in the Dead Dog Days of Summer...

Can't say I wasn't warned about the summer humidity down here at the Edge of the Pine Forest...but jeezLouise it gets boring with cabin fever, where the BH can trap me into Inside HoneyDoo's I was hoping to avoid until Fall...
Ron
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#6370956 - 07/16/16 08:09 AM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: chital_shikari]
Tff caribou Offline
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Registered: 08/27/12
Posts: 2996
Loc: Watauga, TX
I dont know of more than 1 or 2 posters who hunt at extreme long ranges. Even the long range shooters seem to keep their shots on deer to under 400 yards.
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#6371027 - 07/16/16 09:04 AM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: chital_shikari]
Brother in-law Online   content
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Registered: 07/08/07
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Even if it is explained again , it will not be retained again

It would be a waist of time

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#6371035 - 07/16/16 09:10 AM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: Brother in-law]
JJH Online   content
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Registered: 10/03/06
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Originally Posted By: Brother in-law
Even if it is explained again , it will not be retained again

It would be a waist of time


laugh

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#6371091 - 07/16/16 09:55 AM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: Tff caribou]
Nogalus Prairie Online   content
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Registered: 11/22/10
Posts: 19244
Loc: Corsicana
Originally Posted By: Tff caribou
I dont know of more than 1 or 2 posters who hunt at extreme long ranges. Even the long range shooters seem to keep their shots on deer to under 400 yards.


I hope that's true. It doesn't appear to be in many cases. Every time this subject comes up, it seems to draw multiple posts of "DRT" shots at extreme distances. My thoughts when I see them are:

1)Internet hyperbole;
2)What about the misses/wounded animals?; and/or
3)Can't you get closer?

I think the angst often comes from the fact that hunters come on asking questions about this or that cartridge/bullet, and within a few posts the direction goes to long-range stuff like BC, dialing scopes, etc. It just seems to be the "in" thing these days everyone is fascinated with - which is cool and fun and all, but rarely applicable to where the vast majority of folks (me included) should be when hunting, which is 400 and under.

So much emphasis on 1/2 minute accuracy, long-range equipment, this and that... Why? Because folks can buy it and feel like it gives them an advantage. But does it really when it comes to hunting?

David Petzal wrote this, and I pretty much agree with it:

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Originally Posted By: REALKILLER
That's the way I hunt don't know many that do. If a deer gets buy me I will try to run him down. Ive killed a bunch that way.



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#6371157 - 07/16/16 11:03 AM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: chital_shikari]
Tff caribou Offline
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Registered: 08/27/12
Posts: 2996
Loc: Watauga, TX
The guys I see posting about hunting at extreme long ranges are usually talking about hogs or coyotes. Neither of which I have an issue with taking 800 yard shots at. I know there are plenty of guys out there taking extreme long range shots on deer, but I just don't see THFers posting about it much. Every now and then Derrick will post pics of a customers animal shot at 500+ yards, but that usually the only thing I see about it.

ALOT of guys here shoot steel and paper at extreme long ranges, but seem to shoot animals at a much shorter distance. I've seen several say, practice at 800, and 400 becomes much easier.


Edited by Tff caribou (07/16/16 11:04 AM)
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#6371158 - 07/16/16 11:03 AM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: chital_shikari]
DStroud Offline
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Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 1155
Loc: Waco
I'll take the bait. aim
First statement is my LR Big Game rifle currently is a 280 Remington shooting 168gr Berger's at 2880.
In my Ballistic program it says today sitting here in Waco my PBR is 280 yards. My PBR is set at 5 inches below LOS so my 280 load is not even what Chuck Hawke's considers LR cartridge BUT he is using a 3 inch high at 100 sight-in vs my 1 inch and I have a 200 yard zero all in all mine would work out to a 275-285 yard MPBR. So if I am reading this article correctly I should limit my shots to approximately 275 yards??
Well that's strange as in the first 5 minutes of my Elk hunt last season I dropped a Bull in his tracks just propping on a fence post at almost 100 yards past that. I had a few weeks prior laid on the ground and put first shot hits on steel targets(smaller than elk vitals) out to 800 yards with the same gun.

So while making the argument you don't need a Magnum to shoot out to longer ranges I do know that my combo due to energy or whatever measurement you care to use is probably a 400-500 yard elk cartridge and if I actually planned to take longer shots I would need to step up in power.

This might be a good time to insert that for most of my adult life I NEVER took a gun Big game hunting I was strictly a bowhunter with most of my kills with a recurve....in fact my only two "book" kills are archery so no one need go down the git closer path. wink

I am pretty old school when it comes to hunting and shooting but aren't we all intrigued by that long shot possibility? Years ago we all were limited to Chucks theory of MPBR because we could not judge distances well enough to reliability hit targets past PBR. Now with the advent of Rangefinder's all can easily get the exact distance to a target with the touch of a button. That IMO is the cause of all the increased interest in LR shooting which has brought on all these great new rifles/optics/ High BC bullets etc to meet those challenges.

I know Derrick with Horizon Firearms just returned from Africa which he says is a LR shooters paradise due to terrain and I am sure animals with exceptional senses that can be tough to get close to as they travel in herds. Anyway I believe he took 6 animals from a couple of hundred yards out to a Big Kudu at over 700 yards with no misses and no lost animals using 6.5 Creedmoor for smaller animals and the 28 Nosler for larger.
With the knowledge and the right equipment under the right conditions LR range hunting is ethical and doable.

One more brag on my part. Last weekend I shot my 28 Nosler at a 18 inch steel target at 1000 yards with a front rest BUT no rear rest so just propping on my fist and had 13 consecutive hits using 195gr Berger Hunting bullets. This was in a swirling 5-15 mph wind that gave all us that were shooting .308's prior to that fits.

Since the OP asked about 270 Win all I would say is with the right bullets and the correct twist rate no reason it shouldn't work to the same distance as my 280 or other similar cartridges. The main thing to remember is just hitting an animal at longer distance is just half the battle. You also need to consider bullet weight /construction/velocity at impact as you still have to actually kill the animal cleanly. Brian Litz's book Applied Ballistics's For Long range shooting actually has a chapter on the Lethality of LR hunting bullets and is a good read.

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#6371165 - 07/16/16 11:16 AM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: chital_shikari]
Nogalus Prairie Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 11/22/10
Posts: 19244
Loc: Corsicana
From what I gather even the LR guys on here are not magnum guys for the most part. Looks like the 6.5s are real popular to me.....
_________________________
Originally Posted By: REALKILLER
That's the way I hunt don't know many that do. If a deer gets buy me I will try to run him down. Ive killed a bunch that way.



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#6371194 - 07/16/16 11:47 AM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: Nogalus Prairie]
Pitchfork Predator Online   content
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Registered: 01/25/13
Posts: 10787
Loc: Murphy, TX Dickens county
Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
Originally Posted By: Tff caribou
I dont know of more than 1 or 2 posters who hunt at extreme long ranges. Even the long range shooters seem to keep their shots on deer to under 400 yards.


I hope that's true. It doesn't appear to be in many cases. Every time this subject comes up, it seems to draw multiple posts of "DRT" shots at extreme distances. My thoughts when I see them are:

1)Internet hyperbole;
2)What about the misses/wounded animals?; and/or
3)Can't you get closer?

I think the angst often comes from the fact that hunters come on asking questions about this or that cartridge/bullet, and within a few posts the direction goes to long-range stuff like BC, dialing scopes, etc. It just seems to be the "in" thing these days everyone is fascinated with - which is cool and fun and all, but rarely applicable to where the vast majority of folks (me included) should be when hunting, which is 400 and under.

So much emphasis on 1/2 minute accuracy, long-range equipment, this and that... Why? Because folks can buy it and feel like it gives them an advantage. But does it really when it comes to hunting?

David Petzal wrote this, and I pretty much agree with it:




Great quote. cheers

I would not shoot at a deer more than 400 yards away. My longest shot was 345 yards with a 270 130gr. I have really enjoyed getting into hitting steel at long distances with the 308. Great way to enjoy the off season months.

I agree with the author when it comes to medium size game like white tails. And I also would not hesitate using the same rifle and bullet on an Elk 400 yards or less. up
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#6371213 - 07/16/16 12:09 PM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: chital_shikari]
Tactical Cowboy Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 2844
Loc: Abilene
Most modern rifles, when sighted in dead on at 200 yards, will hit roughly 6-8" low at 300. There's really not much difference in a .308 and a 300 mag at those distances. And, 3-400 yards is plenty far on a game animal.
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#6371234 - 07/16/16 12:42 PM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: chital_shikari]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9397
Loc: Lewisville, TX
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#6371336 - 07/16/16 02:30 PM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: chital_shikari]
charlesb Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 1408
Loc: West Texas mountains
This:

Quote:

The ethical limit for hunting shots is about however far your bullet can fly in 1/2 second. Any farther than that and the animal can and will move unpredictably during bullet flight and could easily end up gut shot.

Generally that equates to about 400 yards for magnums, 300-350 yards for non-magum bottleneck hunting cartridges, and potentially less for really slow things like .45-70s.

Of course, there are other limits - the accuracy of your rifle and wind doping, energy on target, minimum functional velocity for the bullet you're using etc. But even if all those are OK, the limits above still apply.

being an ethical hunter is being a good representative for all hunters. If you want to drop animals at long range just to test your skill, varminting is a much better choice than big game hunting. Varmint covers a lot of range, from prairie dog to feral hog and people are generally happy with a reduction in the pest population.



I will not bother to name names, but there is at least one member of this forum who has actually bragged about shooting deer at 800 yards.

This is the direct opposite of sportsmanship, taking the manhood out of the manly sport of big game hunting in Texas. - Or anywhere else, for that matter.



Edited by charlesb (07/16/16 02:33 PM)
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#6371351 - 07/16/16 02:46 PM Re: Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls [Re: chital_shikari]
Nogalus Prairie Online   content
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Registered: 11/22/10
Posts: 19244
Loc: Corsicana
One guy? 600-1000+ yard hunting is the new rage now. Ever watch Best of the West? YouTube? Even on here 600+ shots on deer are pretty routinely discussed.
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Originally Posted By: REALKILLER
That's the way I hunt don't know many that do. If a deer gets buy me I will try to run him down. Ive killed a bunch that way.



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