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#6369771 - 07/14/16 10:23 PM Quickload Propellant Burnt % question
Big Stan Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 05/02/14
Posts: 272
I am pretty new to QL but learning, a thought came about when I was fiddling with QL. After selecting powders, you can see on the chart where it says Propellant burnt %. My question is, is it best to select a powder when the propellant burnt % is less than 100 %? Reason I asked is because the bullet is still being pushed out the barrel and still under force until it exits the muzzle. If the propellant is 100% burnt by the time the bullet exits the muzzle, will it have an effect on accuracy since its "free flying" down the barrel without any force behind it?

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#6369895 - 07/15/16 05:48 AM Re: Quickload Propellant Burnt % question [Re: Big Stan]
RiverRider Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 6220
Loc: Wise Co.
Most often the powder that will burn has done so by the time the bullet has moved only a few inches. Just because the powder may be 100% consumed within six inches does not mean the gases are not still under very high pressure.
_________________________


Originally Posted By: Cleric
God I am hating caliber threads more and more

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#6369936 - 07/15/16 07:04 AM Re: Quickload Propellant Burnt % question [Re: Big Stan]
Ranch Dog Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1082
Loc: Cuero
When selecting a powder from the list, I've found my best loads from both the greatest burnt % and case fill %.

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#6370203 - 07/15/16 11:03 AM Re: Quickload Propellant Burnt % question [Re: Big Stan]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9425
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Big Stan, what caliber are we talking about, first? Selecting the right powder depends a lot on matching up the caliber and bullet you plan to shoot. Some calibers I shoot have a 95-99% burn. Some subsonics have a 75-80% burn. If you burn up all the powder used, then the round becomes more efficient in using all the powder that's available. But if you go to slower burning powder and heavier bullet, you may only get a 95% burn, but your velocity goes up, but the efficiency of doing so will go down. Kind of like an old 60's Camaro with a bigger carburetor getting more fuel into the engine and less mpg.

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www.DallasReloads.com
Type 01 and Type 06 FFL

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#6370232 - 07/15/16 11:26 AM Re: Quickload Propellant Burnt % question [Re: Big Stan]
kmon1 Online   content
junior

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 20293
Loc: Texas
In the example below over half of the powder is burned before the bullet has traveled 2 inches and pressure is already dropping off. By the time the bullet has traveled 6 over 80% of the powder is burned. 90% burn by 9 inches. To see this in quickloads use the 8th button selection at the tip to display in tabular form.

Cartridge : 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady
Bullet : .264, 140, Berger Hunt VLD #26504
Useable Case Capaci: 46.664 grain H2O = 3.030 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4350
Charge : 42.5 grains = 2.75 grams

Estimates of the progress of combustion:
NR.: x(in.) Z(%) v(fps) p(psi) t (ms)

0 0.00000 1.33 0.0 3626 0.0000
1 0.00002 1.37 0.8 3724 0.0015
2 0.00007 1.40 1.5 3823 0.0054
3 0.00019 1.48 3.0 4019 0.0100
4 0.00044 1.56 4.7 4240 0.0153
5 0.00087 1.66 6.8 4509 0.0215
6 0.00154 1.78 9.2 4827 0.0285
7 0.00255 1.92 12.2 5204 0.0364
8 0.00398 2.08 15.6 5652 0.0450
9 0.00595 2.28 19.8 6182 0.0542
10 0.00857 2.52 24.6 6793 0.0641
11 0.01197 2.78 30.1 7495 0.0744
12 0.01630 3.09 36.6 8303 0.0853
13 0.02170 3.45 43.9 9219 0.0964
14 0.02834 3.86 52.4 10250 0.1079
15 0.03641 4.32 61.9 11404 0.1197
16 0.04608 4.84 72.8 12701 0.1317
17 0.05756 5.43 85.0 14132 0.1438
18 0.07106 6.10 98.7 15703 0.1560
19 0.08681 6.84 114.1 17418 0.1684
20 0.10504 7.67 131.2 19279 0.1808
21 0.12600 8.59 150.1 21270 0.1932
22 0.14995 9.61 171.1 23395 0.2056
23 0.17716 10.72 194.0 25633 0.2180
24 0.20792 11.95 219.1 27975 0.2304
25 0.24252 13.28 246.3 30392 0.2428
26 0.28127 14.72 275.8 32871 0.2552
27 0.32448 16.27 307.5 35374 0.2675
28 0.37249 17.95 341.6 37886 0.2799
29 0.42564 19.73 377.9 40371 0.2922
30 0.48428 21.63 416.5 42795 0.3045
31 0.54879 23.65 457.3 45136 0.3168
32 0.61953 25.78 500.3 47361 0.3291
33 0.69690 28.01 545.4 49445 0.3414
34 0.78130 30.36 592.4 51362 0.3538
35 0.87314 32.80 641.3 53098 0.3662
36 0.97285 35.33 692.0 54630 0.3787
37 1.08087 37.96 744.4 55952 0.3912
38 1.19764 40.67 798.2 57055 0.4038
39 1.32362 43.46 853.4 57934 0.4165
40 1.39551 44.99 883.7 58314 0.4234
41 1.53519 47.71 937.9 58671 0.4362
42 1.57124 48.38 951.5 58714 0.4394
43 1.60777 49.04 965.1 58739 0.4426
44 1.62622 49.37 971.9 58744 0.4441
45 1.63549 49.54 975.3 58746 0.4449
46 1.63781 49.58 976.1 58746 0.4451
47 1.64014 49.62 977.0 58746 0.4453
48 1.64130 49.64 977.4 58746 0.4454
49 1.64246 49.66 977.8 58746 0.4455
50 1.79547 52.26 1032.1 58612 0.4582
51 1.95714 54.79 1086.3 58231 0.4709
52 2.12824 57.24 1140.6 57625 0.4837
53 2.30961 59.63 1194.9 56816 0.4967
54 2.50217 61.96 1249.1 55826 0.5098
55 2.70692 64.21 1303.4 54674 0.5232
56 2.92496 66.39 1357.7 53380 0.5368
57 3.15748 68.51 1411.9 51959 0.5508
58 3.40583 70.55 1466.2 50431 0.5652
59 3.67149 72.53 1520.5 48809 0.5800
60 3.95608 74.44 1574.8 47109 0.5954
61 4.26146 76.28 1629.0 45344 0.6113
62 4.58965 78.05 1683.3 43529 0.6278
63 4.94294 79.75 1737.6 41675 0.6450
64 5.32391 81.39 1791.8 39793 0.6630
65 5.73544 82.95 1846.1 37895 0.6818
66 6.18079 84.45 1900.4 35991 0.7016
67 6.66367 85.88 1954.6 34089 0.7225
68 7.18827 87.24 2008.9 32198 0.7446
69 7.75936 88.53 2063.2 30327 0.7680
70 8.38242 89.75 2117.4 28483 0.7928
71 9.06370 90.90 2171.7 26671 0.8193
72 9.81041 91.98 2226.0 24900 0.8476
73 10.63087 93.00 2280.2 23173 0.8779
74 11.53474 93.95 2334.5 21496 0.9106
75 12.53326 94.82 2388.8 19873 0.9458
76 13.63956 95.63 2443.0 18308 0.9839
77 14.86909 96.37 2497.3 16804 1.0254
78 16.24006 97.04 2551.6 15365 1.0707
79 17.77409 97.65 2605.9 13992 1.1203
80 19.49699 98.18 2660.1 12687 1.1748
81 20.43870 98.42 2687.3 12061 1.2041
82 20.56049 98.45 2690.6 11984 1.2079
83 20.59108 98.46 2691.5 11965 1.2089
84 20.60640 98.46 2691.9 11955 1.2093
85 20.61407 98.46 2692.1 11950 1.2096
86 20.61790 98.46 2692.2 11948 1.2097
87 20.61982 98.46 2692.3 11947 1.2097
88 20.62078 98.46 2692.3 11946 1.2098
89 20.62126 98.46 2692.3 11946 1.2098
Muzzle
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#6370250 - 07/15/16 11:44 AM Re: Quickload Propellant Burnt % question [Re: Big Stan]
RiverRider Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 6220
Loc: Wise Co.
About the slowest burn completion I've been able to cook up was around twelve inches in a very large cartridge with a very slow powder. In cartridges like .308 you'll usually see burn stop at around four inches or so.
_________________________


Originally Posted By: Cleric
God I am hating caliber threads more and more

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#6370256 - 07/15/16 11:50 AM Re: Quickload Propellant Burnt % question [Re: Big Stan]
kmon1 Online   content
junior

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 20293
Loc: Texas
With the example above but change powder to Varget and 90% burned by 5.75 inches with the other 10% burned over the next 13.6 inches or so of bullet travel.
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#6370635 - 07/15/16 06:32 PM Re: Quickload Propellant Burnt % question [Re: Big Stan]
Big Stan Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 05/02/14
Posts: 272
It's more understandable now. I noticed that the chart below shows that the velocity is still increasing even though 100% of the propellant has been burned. Thanks guys.

Cartridge : 7 mm Rem. Mag.(SAAMI)
Bullet : .284, 175, Nosler PART SP 35645
Useable Case Capaci: 73.422 grain H2O = 4.767 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.314 inch = 84.18 mm
Barrel Length : 25.5 inch = 647.7 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-26
Charge : 67.0 grains = 4.34 grams

Estimates of the progress of combustion:
NR.: x(in.) Z(%) v(fps) p(psi) t (ms)

0 0.00000 1.31 0.0 3626 0.0000
1 0.00002 1.35 1.0 3726 0.0011
2 0.00007 1.38 2.0 3826 0.0040
3 0.00019 1.42 3.0 3926 0.0082
4 0.00044 1.47 4.5 4075 0.0136
5 0.00087 1.54 6.3 4249 0.0201
6 0.00154 1.62 8.6 4473 0.0277
7 0.00255 1.71 11.2 4732 0.0362
8 0.00398 1.83 14.3 5040 0.0456
9 0.00595 1.95 17.8 5383 0.0557
10 0.00857 2.10 22.0 5786 0.0667
11 0.01197 2.28 26.7 6246 0.0784
12 0.01630 2.48 32.2 6776 0.0906
13 0.02170 2.70 38.3 7360 0.1034
14 0.02834 2.95 45.2 8021 0.1166
15 0.03641 3.24 53.0 8755 0.1303
16 0.04608 3.56 61.7 9572 0.1444
17 0.05756 3.92 71.4 10473 0.1587
18 0.07106 4.33 82.3 11470 0.1734
19 0.08681 4.78 94.4 12562 0.1882
20 0.10504 5.28 107.8 13746 0.2033
21 0.12600 5.85 122.6 15032 0.2184
22 0.14995 6.47 138.9 16421 0.2337
23 0.17716 7.15 156.7 17905 0.2490
24 0.20792 7.91 176.3 19489 0.2644
25 0.24252 8.75 197.6 21169 0.2798
26 0.28127 9.66 220.7 22929 0.2953
27 0.32448 10.66 245.7 24771 0.3107
28 0.37249 11.75 272.7 26682 0.3262
29 0.42564 12.93 301.7 28651 0.3416
30 0.48428 14.22 332.7 30664 0.3570
31 0.54879 15.61 365.9 32710 0.3724
32 0.61953 17.10 401.1 34770 0.3878
33 0.69690 18.71 438.4 36830 0.4031
34 0.78130 20.44 477.9 38876 0.4185
35 0.87314 22.29 519.5 40890 0.4338
36 0.97285 24.27 563.2 42857 0.4492
37 1.08087 26.36 608.9 44758 0.4645
38 1.19764 28.59 656.6 46587 0.4799
39 1.32362 30.96 706.2 48327 0.4953
40 1.45929 33.45 757.7 49967 0.5108
41 1.60513 36.08 811.0 51497 0.5262
42 1.76164 38.85 866.0 52914 0.5418
43 1.92933 41.75 922.7 54208 0.5574
44 2.10871 44.79 980.9 55373 0.5731
45 2.30031 47.97 1040.6 56409 0.5889
46 2.50469 51.28 1101.7 57315 0.6048
47 2.72239 54.73 1164.0 58092 0.6208
48 2.95398 58.31 1227.6 58743 0.6370
49 3.10428 60.59 1267.5 59082 0.6470
50 3.24129 62.54 1301.7 59243 0.6559
51 3.31094 63.49 1318.8 59286 0.6603
52 3.34606 63.97 1327.3 59298 0.6625
53 3.36370 64.20 1331.6 59301 0.6637
54 3.38139 64.44 1335.9 59303 0.6648
55 3.39025 64.55 1338.0 59304 0.6653
56 3.39469 64.61 1339.1 59304 0.6656
57 3.39691 64.64 1339.6 59304 0.6657
58 3.39913 64.67 1340.1 59304 0.6659
59 3.54300 66.51 1374.3 59256 0.6747
60 3.69046 68.30 1408.5 59116 0.6835
61 3.84176 70.04 1442.7 58890 0.6924
62 3.99716 71.74 1476.9 58582 0.7012
63 4.15692 73.38 1511.1 58197 0.7102
64 4.32129 74.98 1545.3 57738 0.7191
65 4.49056 76.52 1579.5 57210 0.7281
66 4.66504 78.02 1613.7 56617 0.7373
67 4.84501 79.46 1647.9 55962 0.7464
68 5.03081 80.86 1682.1 55250 0.7557
69 5.22278 82.21 1716.3 54483 0.7652
70 5.42129 83.51 1750.5 53665 0.7747
71 5.62670 84.76 1784.7 52801 0.7844
72 5.83944 85.96 1818.9 51892 0.7942
73 6.05994 87.11 1853.1 50943 0.8042
74 6.28865 88.21 1887.3 49956 0.8144
75 6.52608 89.26 1921.5 48934 0.8248
76 6.77275 90.27 1955.7 47881 0.8354
77 7.02923 91.22 1989.9 46799 0.8463
78 7.29612 92.13 2024.1 45691 0.8573
79 7.57409 92.98 2058.3 44560 0.8687
80 7.86384 93.79 2092.5 43409 0.8803
81 8.16613 94.55 2126.7 42239 0.8923
82 8.48177 95.25 2160.9 41055 0.9045
83 8.81166 95.91 2195.1 39857 0.9172
84 9.15677 96.52 2229.3 38649 0.9302
85 9.51814 97.08 2263.5 37432 0.9436
86 9.89690 97.59 2297.7 36210 0.9574
87 10.29430 98.06 2331.9 34984 0.9717
88 10.71169 98.47 2366.1 33756 0.9865
89 11.15056 98.83 2400.3 32529 1.0019
90 11.61251 99.15 2434.5 31304 1.0178
91 12.09934 99.41 2468.7 30084 1.0343
92 12.61300 99.63 2502.9 28870 1.0515
93 13.15565 99.79 2537.1 27665 1.0695
94 13.72968 99.91 2571.3 26470 1.0882
95 14.33771 99.98 2605.5 25286 1.1078
96 14.89994 100.00 2635.5 24261 1.1257
97 15.37086 100.00 2659.4 23455 1.1405
98 15.84177 100.00 2682.3 22696 1.1552
99 16.31269 100.00 2704.3 21980 1.1698
100 16.78360 100.00 2725.5 21304 1.1842
101 17.25451 100.00 2745.8 20665 1.1986
102 17.72543 100.00 2765.4 20060 1.2128
103 18.19634 100.00 2784.3 19486 1.2269
104 18.66725 100.00 2802.6 18941 1.2410
105 19.13817 100.00 2820.2 18423 1.2549
106 19.60908 100.00 2837.3 17931 1.2688
107 20.07999 100.00 2853.8 17461 1.2826
108 20.55091 100.00 2869.8 17014 1.2963
109 21.02182 100.00 2885.2 16587 1.3100
110 21.49273 100.00 2900.3 16179 1.3235
111 21.96365 100.00 2914.9 15788 1.3370
112 22.43456 100.00 2929.0 15415 1.3505
113 22.90547 100.00 2942.8 15057 1.3638
114 23.37639 100.00 2956.2 14714 1.3771
115 23.54567 100.00 2960.9 14594 1.3819

Muzzle


Edited by Big Stan (07/15/16 06:35 PM)

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#6370785 - 07/15/16 09:53 PM Re: Quickload Propellant Burnt % question [Re: kmon1]
RiverRider Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 6220
Loc: Wise Co.
Originally Posted By: kmon1
With the example above but change powder to Varget and 90% burned by 5.75 inches with the other 10% burned over the next 13.6 inches or so of bullet travel.



You are correct, Kevin. I am a bit perplexed...this goes against what some highly regarded gun writers have said and which I always took as gospel. I haven't made much use of this function in QL, and after playing around with a few cartridges and powders I have seen some stuff that really surprised me. The few times I did check out the consumption curve, I saw confirmation of the "first few inches" dictum and never messed with it thereafter. After having played with it a bit this evening with a variety of cartridges, I can see I'm going to have to play with it a lot more to get a handle on some of the surprises I discovered.

The thing is, though, once a bullet has traveled down the bore 10 or 12 inches the pressure will have fallen to about half of the peak value, and the the volume of containment will have expanded several times making the additional gas provided by the burn of the last few percent of the charge almost, if not entirely inconsequential in terms of velocity.

It's actually a pretty interesting thing, and I'll be looking at some of the things I've seen that really surprised me.
_________________________


Originally Posted By: Cleric
God I am hating caliber threads more and more

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#6372259 - 07/17/16 02:32 PM Re: Quickload Propellant Burnt % question [Re: Big Stan]
RiverRider Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 6220
Loc: Wise Co.
Consultation with one of the "highly regarded authorities" has confirmed that the axiom stating that "all the powder that will burn does so in the first few inches ahead of the chamber" originated with Homer Powley. I knew I had stuck that factoid in my brain because it had come from a credible source, I just couldn't remember who the source was.

I wish I knew an easy way verify what QuickLOAD predicts, but I think about the best that can be done would be to see if it can predict when less than 100% burn is realized by decreasing charges and by shooting with a large sheet out in front of the muzzle. I have to wonder how Powley came to his conclusions also. Since I've not read his book I wouldn't even begin to guess.

I will restate what I think is important, though (assuming QL is right): by the time 95% of the powder has burned, the confinement volume for powder burn will have expanded to the point that the effect or influence of the burn of the last 5% of the charge will be greatly diminished.
_________________________


Originally Posted By: Cleric
God I am hating caliber threads more and more

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