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Cleaning Rod #6363892 07/09/16 10:43 PM
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onlysmith&wesson Online Content OP
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J. Dewey Nylon Coated Cleaning Rod is a fantastic product. Great quality, turns freely, very smooth, makes something that could be hard not too difficult.


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6363944 07/09/16 11:34 PM
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That it is. No more brass rods for me.

Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6363970 07/09/16 11:50 PM
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I have one as well and it is very nice.

Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6364321 07/10/16 02:43 PM
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Doesn't the nylon pick up grit, then scratch the rifling with it? If the nylon is colored black, I would be especially suspicious that this might be the case. - The black color would tend to conceal any carbon grit embedded in the soft plastic.

Just wondering if this might be a problem with nylon-coated rods.

Last edited by charlesb; 07/10/16 02:44 PM.

Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6364534 07/10/16 07:20 PM
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I doubt it would act as a Grit Magnet. It's not a "soft" coating.
I also wipe down the rod after each pass.

The rod is smaller in diameter than the bore.
That would also make it difficult to scratch the bore.

I have 3 of these rods and have not had any problems with them.

Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6364626 07/10/16 08:54 PM
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If you use the correct size rod and a bore guide the only thing that touches your barrel is a patch or bristles of a brush.

Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: charlesb] #6364689 07/10/16 09:19 PM
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"Doesn't the nylon pick up grit, then scratch the rifling with it? If the nylon is colored black, I would be especially suspicious that this might be the case. - The black color would tend to conceal any carbon grit embedded in the soft plastic.

Just wondering if this might be a problem with nylon-coated rods."

No

Last edited by onlysmith&wesson; 07/10/16 09:20 PM.

An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6364839 07/10/16 11:54 PM
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Note that when using a tight patch, most cleaning rods will bend, and touch the bore. Using a bore guide will not prevent this from happening, as it occurs partway down the bore, somewhere near the middle of the unsupported part of the rod.

This can only be minimized by using a cleaning rod that is of a strong, rigid material and of sufficient diameter to minimize flexing or bending. Most cleaning rods are designed to be usable with .22 bores. - But it doesn't have to be that way.

If the rod were not flexing and touching the bore under pressure, then one might ask, "Why bother with a coating of any type, and why would brass or aluminum be inferior to steel?"

Ever since I purchased and learned to use a quality bore-scope, I have been amazed at how many people claim to know what is going on, down inside a rifle bore - with no way of really knowing a thing about it. Peering down a rifle bore with a light will tell you a little... Very little.

Carbon is significantly harder than nylon. If anyone seriously believes that tiny flakes and bits of carbon will not embed into nylon, then I've got a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge that I would like to discuss with them. Nylon coated rods get a scuffed and darkened appearance after a while... Guess what causes that.

I am sure that the J. Dewey nylon-coated rods are an excellent product, but let's try and stick with reality here. Of course the rod is going to flex and touch the bore. Of course the nylon is going to pick up a certain amount of grit when it does, and it will tend to do so at the contact point. That's the way it goes, like it or not.

Personally I have doubts as to how much real damage any quality cleaning rod is going to do to the bore, in normal use with a bore guide. This includes aluminum and brass rods, though you can be sure that they will flex more, and pick up more crud than steel will.

I still wonder about the wisdom of taking a perfectly good steel rod though, and coating it with something significantly softer than either aluminum or brass. Mix a lubricant with grit, and you have the equivalent of valve grinding compound. With hard, slick steel touching steel, there is a good chance of the grit being pushed away from the contact point to wind up in the grooves, but if there is something soft enough for the grit to embed into, then it gets dragged into and through the contact point, affecting the lands.

This is why I use stainless steel cleaning rods, with no coating. I wipe the cleaning rod clean with each pass, and let the crud collect on a bit of paper towel instead of going back into the bore. The difference in doing this and using a softer metal, or a coated rod is minuscule, but it does exist. Don't fool yourself.

You're certainly not fooling me.

Last edited by charlesb; 07/10/16 11:56 PM.

Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: charlesb] #6365044 07/11/16 02:04 AM
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Wow. You are the wind beneath my wings. Thank You so very much.


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6365683 07/11/16 06:44 PM
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There has been an ongoing discussion about cleaning rods - for as long as there have been cleaning rods.

Each design has its proponents, and they all have arguments that lay out their reasoning. The only design that appears to have fallen completely out of favor are the wooden cleaning rods made out of hickory, which used to be quite popular but are virtually unheard-of today.

If you do not agree with my opinions, why then go ahead and express your own. I'm sure that many of the readers here would rather hear that, than any display of petulant sarcasm.


Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6366324 07/12/16 01:59 AM
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I was wrong, you're more like the wind in my pants.

If you'd like to discuss this further, pm me.


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6366540 07/12/16 07:55 AM
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I use Tipton carbon fiber rods and wipe them off after every pass. I'm of the same mind as Charlesb though. I don't think the material is as important as proper cleaning method.

I also don't clean my firearms nearly as frequently as I used too. Accuracy hasn't suffered and in some cases has improved.


Don’t roll those bloodshot eyes at me.
Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6366545 07/12/16 10:20 AM
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Based on what's being said... A Bore Snake would be the absolute worst thing you could ever use.
It's doing nothing but dragging carbon through the bore over & over again.

I don't think I'll be throwing mine away just yet.
I personally think that they come in handy for certain chores.

Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: dredd] #6366625 07/12/16 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: dredd
Based on what's being said... A Bore Snake would be the absolute worst thing you could ever use.
It's doing nothing but dragging carbon through the bore over & over again.

I don't think I'll be throwing mine away just yet.
I personally think that they come in handy for certain chores.


The bore snake can come in handy at times. I wash mine with dish soap and warm water, it seems to do a pretty good job.

Somehow or another I have wound up with an impressive collection of bore snakes, only half of which have ever been used.


Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6366641 07/12/16 12:54 PM
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Tipton even states on their website that all cleaning rods gather grit from the barrel and you should wipe any cleaning rod each pass.


"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."

Jack O'Connor 1963
Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6366653 07/12/16 01:16 PM
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aim


The Greatest Enemy of knowledge is not ignorance,
it is the illusion of knowledge.--Stephen Hawking
Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6366664 07/12/16 01:28 PM
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Every rider on the Tour De France is on a carbon fiber bike frame, crank, and wheels - exerting crazy pressure/grit/grime on the components - all while traveling at speeds on a bicycle that most people cannot fathom. I think I'll be fine pushing my carbon fiber rod through my barrel a few times.

I wipe with each pass. I use a .22 rod in my 6.5, 270, and 308 with an exact size jag or brush for each caliber so I'm never exerting enough force to even bend the rod. I think there is more risk from dragging your jag/brush/rod over the crown or cleaning too often.

Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6366712 07/12/16 02:15 PM
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When you hear about damage to the crown from going through the muzzle to clean, the great majority of this occurs from the cleaning rod sliding back and forth over the last inch of so of rifling, with crud from inside the barrel on it acting as an abrasive. This traditionally happened most often with three-piece aluminum rods being used on lever-guns, but "clean from the muzzle" aficionados also managed to booger up a good number of bolt guns the same way.

On my M1A Scout Squad, which you pretty well have to clean from the muzzle, I discovered that an empty 12ga shotgun shell hull would slip right over the muzzle brake. - So I de-primed a high brass 12ga hull, and drilled out the primer pocket so that my cleaning rod would slide through. I put the hull on the cleaning rod, brass end first, and used it as a bore guide so that I wouldn't booger up the crown and last bit of rifling on the expensive M1A.

A 28ga hull might work out well for a lever gun, with a slot cut in the plastic part for the front sight to fit into.

Along with the three-piece aluminum cleaning rods popular in the "good old days", shooters in that era were often advised to run a brush or tight-fitting patch back and forth ten times before removing it from the barrel, so that the accumulated crud on them had plenty of opportunity to wear down the softer, less durable barrel steel that they had back then.

Now days we use a bore guide, and let the patch drop off of the jag after being pushed through once. Shooters now are also not so radical with cleaning brushes, giving them one pass before cleaning the brush for the next one, and sometimes use nylon brushes instead of phosphor-bronze. (Note that the phosphor-bronze is not hard enough to adversely affect steel.) Cleaning a bronze brush after each pass to get the crud off of it does a lot more good than using nylon instead. In fact, grit will embed into nylon, but not phosphor-bronze.

Speaking strictly for myself, I have found that only a tight-fitting patch will get the last bits of carbon residue out of the barrel. When I do this, you betcha the rod bows under the force required to push that patch through. Just because it happens inside of the barrel where you can't see it doesn't mean that it is not happening. This is why I use a stainless steel rod, with no coating, and it is also why I clean the rod with each pass.

Think it through... If the rod going through a bore guide does not flex enough to touch the bore, then how does it get so much crud on it? It gets crud on it because it is touching the bore.


Last edited by charlesb; 07/12/16 02:17 PM.

Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6366746 07/12/16 02:59 PM
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The particulate is loose, and as the rod trails behind the rotating patch it falls onto the rod. There is also a static field created from the friction, causing it to adhere; more likely to metal than a composite. Was metallurgy taught at the gunsmith school you attended?


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6366757 07/12/16 03:12 PM
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Oh Charles..... once again you ask a question for the sole purpose of starting an argument

Question

Originally Posted By: charlesb
Doesn't the nylon pick up grit, then scratch the rifling with it? If the nylon is colored black, I would be especially suspicious that this might be the case. - The black color would tend to conceal any carbon grit embedded in the soft plastic.

Just wondering if this might be a problem with nylon-coated rods.


You then got 3 responses of people's opinions which you clearly don't think are as important as yours long drawn out opinion [opinion - something everyone has and is entitled to]


Originally Posted By: charlesb
Note that when using a tight patch, most cleaning rods will bend, and touch the bore. Using a bore guide will not prevent this from happening, as it occurs partway down the bore, somewhere near the middle of the unsupported part of the rod.

This can only be minimized by using a cleaning rod that is of a strong, rigid material and of sufficient diameter to minimize flexing or bending. Most cleaning rods are designed to be usable with .22 bores. - But it doesn't have to be that way.

If the rod were not flexing and touching the bore under pressure, then one might ask, "Why bother with a coating of any type, and why would brass or aluminum be inferior to steel?"

Ever since I purchased and learned to use a quality bore-scope, I have been amazed at how many people claim to know what is going on, down inside a rifle bore - with no way of really knowing a thing about it. Peering down a rifle bore with a light will tell you a little... Very little.

Carbon is significantly harder than nylon. If anyone seriously believes that tiny flakes and bits of carbon will not embed into nylon, then I've got a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge that I would like to discuss with them. Nylon coated rods get a scuffed and darkened appearance after a while... Guess what causes that.

I am sure that the J. Dewey nylon-coated rods are an excellent product, but let's try and stick with reality here. Of course the rod is going to flex and touch the bore. Of course the nylon is going to pick up a certain amount of grit when it does, and it will tend to do so at the contact point. That's the way it goes, like it or not.

Personally I have doubts as to how much real damage any quality cleaning rod is going to do to the bore, in normal use with a bore guide. This includes aluminum and brass rods, though you can be sure that they will flex more, and pick up more crud than steel will.

I still wonder about the wisdom of taking a perfectly good steel rod though, and coating it with something significantly softer than either aluminum or brass. Mix a lubricant with grit, and you have the equivalent of valve grinding compound. With hard, slick steel touching steel, there is a good chance of the grit being pushed away from the contact point to wind up in the grooves, but if there is something soft enough for the grit to embed into, then it gets dragged into and through the contact point, affecting the lands.

This is why I use stainless steel cleaning rods, with no coating. I wipe the cleaning rod clean with each pass, and let the crud collect on a bit of paper towel instead of going back into the bore. The difference in doing this and using a softer metal, or a coated rod is minuscule, but it does exist. Don't fool yourself.

You're certainly not fooling me.



Look, you asking for more opinions so you can spout off more "charles way or the highway"


Originally Posted By: charlesb
There has been an ongoing discussion about cleaning rods - for as long as there have been cleaning rods.

Each design has its proponents, and they all have arguments that lay out their reasoning. The only design that appears to have fallen completely out of favor are the wooden cleaning rods made out of hickory, which used to be quite popular but are virtually unheard-of today.

If you do not agree with my opinions, why then go ahead and express your own. I'm sure that many of the readers here would rather hear that, than any display of petulant sarcasm.


Oh the Irony....



This is also probably the part where you complain to an admin and have me banned again....your act is old and tiresome, you'd be better suited putting on pants and heading out to look for these pokemon things..... in traffic.

Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6366829 07/12/16 04:09 PM
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Dave 3575 - If you managed to get yourself booted, it was probably due to making personal attacks, instead of simply joining the conversation and expressing your opinion on the topic being discussed.

I asked a question about nylon coated cleaning rods, in order to see what other members here have to say about it. No big mystery or conspiracy there, just a simple question.


Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6366847 07/12/16 04:23 PM
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I tend to follow advice from the experts when it comes to my guns. I think most would consider Bartlein, Krieger, and GA Precision to be experts. Interesting that 2 of the 3 specifically mention Dewey rods and 2 of the 3 specifically mention coated rods.

Bartlein
Quote:
Always use a good quality, 1 piece cleaning rod (such as Dewey, Boretech, etc...). Always use a bore guide. Whether cleaning a bolt action rifle or a semi-auto, good bore guides cleaning rods are available from a number of sources (such as Sinclair International, Champions Choice, Brownell's, etc...).

Good 1 piece quality cleaning rod.
Bore guide
Nice cotton patches
Don't drag the brush back over the crown!


Krieger
Quote:
You should use a good quality one piece coated cleaning rod with a freely rotating handle and a rod guide that fits both your receiver raceway and the rod snugly. How straight and how snug? The object is to make sure the rod cannot touch the bore....Even slight damage to the barrel crown is extremely detrimental to accuracy.


GA Precision
Quote:
Suggested equipment and solvents
Bore Guide:
It is critical to use an action rod guide (Bore Guide) when cleaning. The
guide aligns the rod with the bore and helps prevent uneven wear in the
throat area. Be careful not to raise the handle end of the rod while stroking.
This will put a “bow” in the rod that will wear the barrel.

Cleaning Rods:
We recommend coated rods, like the Bore Tech Bore Stix or Dewey, be
used. Try to avoid flimsy screw together rods. These have the potential to
bow and score the barrel.

Jag & Brushes:
Do not apply an aggressive copper remover, like Bore Tech or Sweets, on a
bronze brush or brass jag. It will dissolve the brush and give the false
indication that the barrel has copper in it. We recommend nylon brushes
and non-brass jags for use with copper removers. Brass brushes and jags
can be used with carbon removers.

Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #6366850 07/12/16 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: onlysmith&wesson
The particulate is loose, and as the rod trails behind the rotating patch it falls onto the rod. There is also a static field created from the friction, causing it to adhere; more likely to metal than a composite. Was metallurgy taught at the gunsmith school you attended?


I have never heard of static fields being generated in an oily, lubricated environment. For that matter, I have never heard of a static field being generated solely through friction. - Friction between particular materials have been known to create static fields, steel and oil-soaked cotton not being on high the list of materials likely to do so.

I learned about metallurgy as a welder, as a master machinist, as a millwright, as a heat-treating technician, as an EDM machine operator, as a jeweler, as a hot-rodder, as a biker, and of course as a shooter and gunsmith. - I'm still learning about metallurgy, in fact. There's a lot more to it than is generally recognized.

I think you are right about loose particulate falling on the cleaning rod, but it is hard to credit that for the amount of crud that I end up wiping off of my cleaning rod, after one pass. I have also noticed that most of the crud tends to be toward the middle of the rod, not near the end as would be the case if falling particulates or static were a real issue.

The rod flexing enough to contact the rifling though... That would explain a lot. - Like longitudinal scratching on an older cleaning rod, for example.


Last edited by charlesb; 07/12/16 04:44 PM.

Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: jeepercreeper] #6366858 07/12/16 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: jeepercreeper
I tend to follow advice from the experts when it comes to my guns. I think most would consider Bartlein, Krieger, and GA Precision to be experts. Interesting that 2 of the 3 specifically mention Dewey rods and 2 of the 3 specifically mention coated rods.


You're right. Several 'experts' recommend a nylon-coated cleaning rod.

And, as I mentioned earlier, I am sure that the J. Dewey nylon-coated rods are an excellent product.

My favorite cleaning rod of all time was one advertised in the 60's that had a transparent plastic nekkid woman for the handle.

None of the experts you mentioned apparently understand that nylon is softer than aluminum or brass cleaning rods, which are frowned upon because grit becomes embedded in the soft metal, then scratches the bore.

Think back to the shooter in the golden era of the late 1950's, cleaning his lever gun from the muzzle with an aluminum rod and no bore guide. The practice led to many lever guns having the last few inches of rifling smoothed down, and of course to damaged crowns. - Do you really imagine that soft aluminum wore that steel down - or that perhaps the soft metal picked up grit broken loose from the bore that in turn ground down the steel?

Think it through.

If aluminum or brass will do that, do you want to guess what nylon will do?

Personally, I see the nylon coating to be no more or no less of a gimmick than the transparent plastic nekkid woman was. - It sells cleaning rods.

That's the main thing.

Last edited by charlesb; 07/12/16 04:56 PM.

Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Cleaning Rod [Re: charlesb] #6366877 07/12/16 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: charlesb
Originally Posted By: jeepercreeper
I tend to follow advice from the experts when it comes to my guns. I think most would consider Bartlein, Krieger, and GA Precision to be experts. Interesting that 2 of the 3 specifically mention Dewey rods and 2 of the 3 specifically mention coated rods.


You're right. Several 'experts' recommend a nylon-coated cleaning rod.

And, as I mentioned earlier, I am sure that the J. Dewey nylon-coated rods are an excellent product.

None of these experts apparently understand that nylon is softer than aluminum or brass cleaning rods, which are frowned upon because grit becomes embedded in the soft metal, then scratches the bore.

Think back to the shooter in the golden era of the late 1950's, cleaning his lever gun from the muzzle with an aluminum rod and no bore guide. The practice led to many lever guns having the last few inches of rifling smoothed down, and of course to damaged crowns. - Do you really imagine that soft aluminum wore that steel down - or that perhaps the soft metal picked up grit broken loose from the bore that in turn ground down the steel?

Think it through.


Based on your quotes around the word experts, I take it you do not feel as if Bartlein, Krieger, GAP are experts in the rifle world? What barrels do you use in your custom builds and I'll see what they recommend for rods.

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