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Max Online: 16728 @ 03/25/12 08:51 AM
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#6339949 - 06/18/16 05:03 PM which annealer?
Big Stan Online   content
Bird Dog

Registered: 05/02/14
Posts: 272
Looking to buy an annealer soon and would like some reviews from some of the annealer users on this forum on which annealer are better or best. Some of my cases after being fired about 10 times and some cases have a softer feel and some are a harder feel when seating a bullet. Will annealing make the seating more consistent and a consistent feel with all the brass in the batch? Does it tighten groups and make neck tension more consistent?

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#6340059 - 06/18/16 07:12 PM Re: which annealer? [Re: Big Stan]
Judd Online   content


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 10756
Loc: Sachse, TX
Benchsource or Giraud are the best. I don't think you can go wrong with either.]
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel

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#6340161 - 06/18/16 09:26 PM Re: which annealer? [Re: Big Stan]
Ritter Offline


Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 246
Loc: Southern Oklahoma
Like Judd said, you can't go wrong with a Benchsoure or Giraud. I used a friends Benchsource for three years but bought a Giraud a couple of years ago.
The Benchsource can be a little quicker and easier to get the initial set up right but you have to babysit it and manually feed it. The Giraud takes me a few minutes longer to adjust but once it's set up you can load 100+ pieces of brass and sit back and watch or work on something else.

As far as what annealing can do for neck tension/accuracy, the answer is Yes and No.
The benefit of annealing brass is to soften brass that has been work hardened from multiple firing and resizing. Annealing can help with neck tension but it has a smaller impact than consistent neck thickness and good brass prep.
I know a few benchers shooters that seat their bullets .010" long when the load and seat them to their correct length right before they plan on shooting to break any cold weld that they suspect of forming just to help control neck tension.


Edited by Ritter (06/18/16 09:28 PM)
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#6340187 - 06/18/16 09:56 PM Re: which annealer? [Re: Ritter]
Big Stan Online   content
Bird Dog

Registered: 05/02/14
Posts: 272
I hear that annealing helps put SD in single digits, is that true? Do you need to practice annealing the brass to get the correct timing on the wheel and correct flaming? You using Tempilaq for correct timing? I am new to this stuff.

Originally Posted By: Ritter
Like Judd said, you can't go wrong with a Benchsoure or Giraud. I used a friends Benchsource for three years but bought a Giraud a couple of years ago.
The Benchsource can be a little quicker and easier to get the initial set up right but you have to babysit it and manually feed it. The Giraud takes me a few minutes longer to adjust but once it's set up you can load 100+ pieces of brass and sit back and watch or work on something else.

As far as what annealing can do for neck tension/accuracy, the answer is Yes and No.
The benefit of annealing brass is to soften brass that has been work hardened from multiple firing and resizing. Annealing can help with neck tension but it has a smaller impact than consistent neck thickness and good brass prep.
I know a few benchers shooters that seat their bullets .010" long when the load and seat them to their correct length right before they plan on shooting to break any cold weld that they suspect of forming just to help control neck tension.

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#6340209 - 06/18/16 10:19 PM Re: which annealer? [Re: Big Stan]
Ranch Dog Online   content
Pro Tracker

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1079
Loc: Cuero
I've been using the Ballistic Edge MFG 360 for a number of years now and really like it. I have the three torches hooked up to a single propane bottle.

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#6340289 - 06/18/16 11:51 PM Re: which annealer? [Re: Big Stan]
DStroud Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 1156
Loc: Waco
From the research done by Applied Ballistics and others there seems to be no correlation between low ES/SD and annealing cases.
It probably makes your brass last longer but don't count on it making your ammo better. I do anneal some brass with that being said.

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#6340461 - 06/19/16 09:52 AM Re: which annealer? [Re: Big Stan]
Ritter Offline


Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 246
Loc: Southern Oklahoma
If you are wanting to obtain low standard deviation numbers you really need to look at the other steps in reloading first; brass prep, powder & primer selection and charge weight consistency. While proper annealing can help, it's impact is marginal compared to the other factors.
Neck tension and uniform charge weights of the right powder for the bullet weight & case capacity are usually the biggest influence on consistent muzzle velocities.

I don't think you really need to practice annealing but you should always run a few pieces of test brass through the annealer to verify your results. I reload for several calibers and have to adjust the flame temperature, flame position and dwell time differently for each cartridge.
Using Tempilaq will definitely help you get dialed in better than trying to eyeball the process.
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#6340946 - 06/19/16 07:39 PM Re: which annealer? [Re: Big Stan]
jeff1383 Offline
Tracker

Registered: 05/19/11
Posts: 873
Loc: Frisco
Check out Anealeeze.com also. Compact, affordable and automated. Half the price of the ones suggested.


Edited by jeff1383 (06/19/16 07:39 PM)

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#6341061 - 06/19/16 09:13 PM Re: which annealer? [Re: Ritter]
Big Stan Online   content
Bird Dog

Registered: 05/02/14
Posts: 272
Originally Posted By: Ritter
If you are wanting to obtain low standard deviation numbers you really need to look at the other steps in reloading first; brass prep, powder & primer selection and charge weight consistency. While proper annealing can help, it's impact is marginal compared to the other factors.
Neck tension and uniform charge weights of the right powder for the bullet weight & case capacity are usually the biggest influence on consistent muzzle velocities.



I cannot agree more, of course there are other variables, I just got the FX-120I last week, and its amazingly accurate to .02, still looking for a neck turning tool that can be used with a power drill before I buy an annealer. What neck turning tool is most popular, especially with a power drill for faster and uniform cuts? Looking to cut a little just to even out the uneven necks.

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#6341536 - 06/20/16 09:58 AM Re: which annealer? [Re: Ritter]
Judd Online   content


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 10756
Loc: Sachse, TX
Originally Posted By: Ritter
I know a few benchers shooters that seat their bullets .010" long when the load and seat them to their correct length right before they plan on shooting to break any cold weld that they suspect of forming just to help control neck tension.


^ guilty as charged

K&M is a great neck turning tool...however all of them work well...you just need to make sure your pilot and your expander are the same manufacturer. There is nothing fast about turning necks so you can throw that out the window. It's a painful, laborious and tedious task. I do not do it unless I'm convinced I have too.

If low ES/SD's are your goal you need to start with good brass...Lapua is my preference and I have limited experience with Hornady and Winchester...both pail in comparison. Focus on ignition and neck tension...you don't need to debur Lapua flash holes but I do recommend you getting a flash hole reamer ( http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-eq...-prod36020.aspx ). I've yet to see any large primer beat a BR-2. Small primers you have to try more...the 450/br4/205M are the top of the heap there.

Neck tension...I know what Litz said and I think it's crazy to disagree with him, but I do. I think annealing does help make your neck tension more consistent and it makes brass last much longer because it isn't hardening....regardless, it can't hurt. I anneal every firing. There are two ways in my opinion to work on neck tension (prior to deciding if you need to neck turn) 1 - get rid of all expander buttons in your sizing dies and go to neck bushing dies OR 2 - Size your brass a little tighter than you want and then use a custom expander to set your neck sizes. The advantage of #2 really almost (key word almost, there will be some exceptions) makes it where you don't need to trim your necks because you aren't sizing your necks off the outside but instead of the inside so it will always be uniform on the bullet gripping surface.

Good luck!
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel

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#6342346 - 06/20/16 09:20 PM Re: which annealer? [Re: Judd]
Big Stan Online   content
Bird Dog

Registered: 05/02/14
Posts: 272
Originally Posted By: Judd
Originally Posted By: Ritter
I know a few benchers shooters that seat their bullets .010" long when the load and seat them to their correct length right before they plan on shooting to break any cold weld that they suspect of forming just to help control neck tension.


2 - Size your brass a little tighter than you want and then use a custom expander to set your neck sizes. The advantage of #2 really almost (key word almost, there will be some exceptions) makes it where you don't need to trim your necks because you aren't sizing your necks off the outside but instead of the inside so it will always be uniform on the bullet gripping surface.

Good luck!


Hey Judd, are you referring to the custom expander mandrels they use for the neck turning to size the inside necks? If you are, there is only one size they use unless you meant a different expander? Please add a link.

I love to use Lapua brass, but for some of my calibers the only available brass is Norma and Hornady. I agree that Lapua does not need much brass prepping as other brass makers. I square primer pockets on all my brass as well. I wished 6.5 CM has Lapua brass available, and have not tried the Norma yet. I see some bullet runout in the 6.5 CM loads with Hornady brass, even after neck sizing with the Redding Competition neck sizer and full sizer. I use a .290 bushing. I still see some variations on the CaseMaster between .001 and .003


Edited by Big Stan (06/20/16 09:28 PM)

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#6343033 - 06/21/16 02:43 PM Re: which annealer? [Re: Big Stan]
Judd Online   content


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 10756
Loc: Sachse, TX
You can custom order from K&M specific sizes for doing what I was referring to above. You can also make your own should you have access to a lathe. My buddy made his set and they are quite impressive to the accuracy, he's measuring .0001 on his.

Also, the flash hole reamer I posted above is completely different than uniforming the primer pocket, not sure if you noticed that but it's a tool to uniform the flash hole. I do both.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel

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