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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: TackDriver]
#6302111
05/18/16 01:59 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
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RiverRider
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I'd point out a couple of things to throw at this argument: first,the crown won't have any effect on velocity, and I don't think it matters one way or another in the experiment. Second, there most certainly IS some point in barrel length where you'll begin to lose velocity because the displacement of the bullet is relieving the pressure behind the bullet, but the friction between bore surface and bearing surface remains the same. At some point positive acceleration will cease and deceleration will begin. I wouldn't even begin to guess what that length might be, but I think it would depend on jacket metal composition and coefficient of friction, bearing surface area, bore diameter, sectional density of the bullet, and the amount of propellant (which determines the volume of gas) driving the bullet. Maybe the phase of the moon, too.
If I recall correctly, the optimum barrel length, in terms of velocity, for the .22 LR cartridge is something like 16 inches. Additional barrel length causes velocity loss.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: Buzzsaw]
#6302425
05/18/16 01:35 PM
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TackDriver
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Hey Stan, I'm enjoying this thread, I have a new Creedmoor too. Its very interesting how all are guns are so different. I had to load 42.4 H4350 to get to 2710fps. How long is your barrel? Bullet weight?
Last edited by Big Stan; 05/18/16 01:38 PM.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: TackDriver]
#6303106
05/18/16 11:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
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Buzzsaw
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25" Bartlien 1-8 twist
140 ELD-Match
SPACE FOR RENT
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: Buzzsaw]
#6303273
05/19/16 01:43 AM
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Joined: May 2014
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TackDriver
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25" Bartlien 1-8 twist
140 ELD-Match Have you tried the 130? I have noticed that I used 40.7 grains to get the 140 to 2750 fps. It's 1.7 grains less. .
Last edited by Big Stan; 05/19/16 01:48 AM.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#6303985
05/19/16 04:56 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907
ChadTRG42
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I'm reading it and the article specifically implies this and the posted results show this. That is the data set that was gathered. Read on... You are proving my point exactly. Most shooters won't "read on". They look at a chart and make a conclusion based on flawed data. So, answer 1 question, and 1 question only for me, which has not been addressed. Do you believe a 142 SMK will lose speed (or not gain any more speed) in a barrel longer than 24"? It's a yes or no question. Where'd you go?
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#6304031
05/19/16 05:27 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
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J.G.
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800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: TackDriver]
#6304040
05/19/16 05:29 PM
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TackDriver
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Unfreakingbelivable, I made the same 4 in one hole load that looked promising, and this time was a fireformed case and neck sized. It shot like crap today, almost .8 MOA. Not sure why, but there is a load that looked promising with 130 Hybrid, around .5 MOA 4 rounds in 15 mph gusts. Loads were 41 and 41.8 grains H4350 with Fed 210 primers. Not sure if the neck size was the problem, I will go back to square one and use a full sizer with the .002 neck bushing. First I will check shoulder bump and bump back .001, then use a gauge to check OAL in the chamber and start the ladder test again in one grain increments from 39 to 43 grains and find a load or loads and then shorten the increments on 2nd ladder test to .2 and see what happens. Will use the 130 /140 Hybrids and the 130 VLD once again and with CCI BR 2 primers. I have checked the OAL length before with round jammed into the lands, backed off .010 and .020 and its not the right way to check. Hope Chad can chime in to give me some advise.
Last edited by Big Stan; 05/19/16 05:37 PM.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: TackDriver]
#6304116
05/19/16 06:16 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
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ChadTRG42
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The load that shot great on virgin brass can easily change when you go to neck size only. Was that same load also slower with the neck sizing? The virgin brass will be a smaller case with more neck tension. The neck sized has less neck tension, and more case volume (since you didn't FL size it), so the load with the same powder charge will have a different pressure than the virgin brass. I'm not a big fan of neck only sizing, and .002" is not a lot of tension, especially if you are touching or jamming bullets into rifling. You run into too many chambering issues neck sizing. A lot of the testing you are doing is changing multiple variables at one time, so you don't know which variable caused what result. Measure your shoulder on virgin brass and compare that to your sized brass. You're getting all fancy with your loading methods, and it's changing everything up.
IMO, it's kind of pointless to have a 30" barrel and run a mild load. A mild load in a 30" barrel will yield you velocities a 22" barrel can get with a max load. I would not be testing in the lower powder charges. I'd keep them up in the max range. For H4350, 43-44.5 grain with a 130 and 41.8-42.7 with a 140 will be about where the max will be, depending on your seating depths and powder lot. Ladder testing in 1 grain increments is WAY too big of a jump, unless you are just trying to find max pressure. Also, you will want to find the accuracy node before you play with the seating depth (which I don't play with seating depth at all). Try to keep it a little more simple. I think you are over complicating things on how you are sizing your brass and playing with seating depths. I don't do half the stuff you are doing, even for my personal competition ammo. FL size the stuff, prime it, throw the powder, and seat a VLD bullet touching the lands (not jammed), and I'm good. My personal ammo I make very fast (and probably a little sloppy), and it will out shoot me, generally.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: TackDriver]
#6304139
05/19/16 06:31 PM
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ChadTRG42
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Also, which bullet is your first choice to shoot? Testing 3 bullets all at the same time would require MANY rounds of ammo to shoot. I would recommend selecting your top pick and working with that 1 bullet to start with. Get a good load with that bullet so you can enjoy shooting your new rifle, while maybe playing with some other bullets. It takes me about 25 rounds to find a good load for 1 bullet, or to at least know where the node is on the rifle. If I were to play with 3 bullets at one time, it would easily take me over 75 rounds. I would go nuts doing that. The Berger bullets will flat out shoot any other bullet. So, wondering if the 130 Hybrid, 130 VLD, or the 140 Hybrid will out shoot the other is futile. They will all 3 shoot equally well once you find the right load. I'd go with the 140 grain for the higher BC with the 30". And if it's a Hybrid, I would jump it some, not jammed or touching, since it's a hybrid design.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#6304378
05/19/16 09:38 PM
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TackDriver
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Also, which bullet is your first choice to shoot? Testing 3 bullets all at the same time would require MANY rounds of ammo to shoot. I would recommend selecting your top pick and working with that 1 bullet to start with. Get a good load with that bullet so you can enjoy shooting your new rifle, while maybe playing with some other bullets. It takes me about 25 rounds to find a good load for 1 bullet, or to at least know where the node is on the rifle. If I were to play with 3 bullets at one time, it would easily take me over 75 rounds. I would go nuts doing that. The Berger bullets will flat out shoot any other bullet. So, wondering if the 130 Hybrid, 130 VLD, or the 140 Hybrid will out shoot the other is futile. They will all 3 shoot equally well once you find the right load. I'd go with the 140 grain for the higher BC with the 30". And if it's a Hybrid, I would jump it some, not jammed or touching, since it's a hybrid design. You are right Chad, fiddling around with 3 bullets is a waste of time. I'll stick with one bullet and how much jump do you recommend on the Hybrids?
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: TackDriver]
#6304701
05/20/16 02:04 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 899
jeff1383
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Hell yeah man 30" tube? Hot rod that sucker!
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: TackDriver]
#6305452
05/20/16 06:39 PM
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TackDriver
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Ran out of H4350, so will the IMR4350 work in close relation as the H4350? I know its a sensitive powder as well, but I am in Texas and its hot as hell so it won't be much of a problem. I went to try the RL 17 today, 39.5 to 43 grains and pushed the 130 Berger Hybrid to 3,050 fps with the 30 inch barrel. No pressure signs at all, and I DON'T see any diminishing returns at all or any decreased velocities, each grain that I added pushed the 130 Berger an extra 60-75 fps but loads starts opening up when going real fast over 41.5 grains. I stopped at 43 grains. That is damn fast, and faster than my 6.5 x 284. I see some promising loads from 39.5 to 41 grains with .5 moa clusters from 2780 to 2875 fps. Speed is not what I am chasing, its accuracy. But I wanted the H4350 and no one has them in stock. Damn.
BTW, I want to get the Quikload software, which version is currently used? Please send me the link. Thanks
Last edited by Big Stan; 05/20/16 06:49 PM.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: TackDriver]
#6305734
05/20/16 10:53 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907
ChadTRG42
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Also, when you switch lots of powder, you will have to retest your loads. H4350 is a powder that can have a huge swing in burn rate from lot to lot. When I buy powder for a barrel, I buy enough to shoot that barrel out. I have 2- 8 lb kegs of H4350 just for my 6.5x47, that will yield about 2700 rounds of ammo of the same lot of powder. This keeps me shooting the same exact load without any changes.
If you are picking up powders in 1 lb cans to test, it won't get you very far after you do your load testing. IMR 4350 will work fine. It's a good powder, but a little temp sensitive. I still use it on my personal 270 Win hunting loads since it shoots so good.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: TackDriver]
#6305813
05/21/16 12:11 AM
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,100
TackDriver
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Thanks Chad, I'll make sure to order the 8 pounder.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmore max loads
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#6305821
05/21/16 12:21 AM
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Joined: May 2014
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TackDriver
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The load that shot great on virgin brass can easily change when you go to neck size only. Was that same load also slower with the neck sizing? The virgin brass will be a smaller case with more neck tension. The neck sized has less neck tension, and more case volume (since you didn't FL size it), so the load with the same powder charge will have a different pressure than the virgin brass. I'm not a big fan of neck only sizing, and .002" is not a lot of tension, especially if you are touching or jamming bullets into rifling. You run into too many chambering issues neck sizing. A lot of the testing you are doing is changing multiple variables at one time, so you don't know which variable caused what result. Measure your shoulder on virgin brass and compare that to your sized brass. You're getting all fancy with your loading methods, and it's changing everything up.
IMO, it's kind of pointless to have a 30" barrel and run a mild load. A mild load in a 30" barrel will yield you velocities a 22" barrel can get with a max load. I would not be testing in the lower powder charges. I'd keep them up in the max range. For H4350, 43-44.5 grain with a 130 and 41.8-42.7 with a 140 will be about where the max will be, depending on your seating depths and powder lot. Ladder testing in 1 grain increments is WAY too big of a jump, unless you are just trying to find max pressure. Also, you will want to find the accuracy node before you play with the seating depth (which I don't play with seating depth at all). Try to keep it a little more simple. I think you are over complicating things on how you are sizing your brass and playing with seating depths. I don't do half the stuff you are doing, even for my personal competition ammo. FL size the stuff, prime it, throw the powder, and seat a VLD bullet touching the lands (not jammed), and I'm good. My personal ammo I make very fast (and probably a little sloppy), and it will out shoot me, generally. That is great advice. Thx Chad.
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