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Max Online: 16728 @ 03/25/12 08:51 AM
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#6287068 - 05/04/16 04:37 PM Muzzle flash at night through the scope
CharlieCTx Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 777
Loc: Flower Mound, TX
My nighttime shooting to date has been with my X-Sight, which after a shot pretty much loses the sight picture for about a second or so after the shot making a quick followup a little tough. First I went shopping for a good flash suppressor thinking that would help, didn't really make much difference (through the scope post-shot) though out of about 10 that were tested, it scored pretty high on the list.

As I watch you thermal guys shoot, there's no muzzle flash I ever see interfering in your next shot. Those of you that have the thermals are also typically suppressed. I will be also in about 5 months. :-)

Is it just the difference between Thermal and IR that accounts for the muzzle flash distortion, is it the suppressor and or both?

Thanks,
Charlie

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#6287148 - 05/04/16 05:29 PM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: CharlieCTx]
ccoker Online   content
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Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 3319
the can makes a big difference
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#6287173 - 05/04/16 05:43 PM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: CharlieCTx]
Rcinit Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 495
Loc: Copperas Cove
When shooting with my Thermals I don't see muzzle flash with or with a suppressor on it. What you see with you X-sight is the smoke that is illuminated by your IR light. If you're able to shoot without an IR illumination the smoke should not blind your picture.

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#6287474 - 05/04/16 09:10 PM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: CharlieCTx]
Pig_Popper Online   content
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Registered: 08/16/15
Posts: 575
Loc: Fort Worth
You can't use digital NV without IR so that's a no go there
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#6287614 - 05/04/16 10:40 PM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: Rcinit]
CharlieCTx Online   content
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Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 777
Loc: Flower Mound, TX
Originally Posted By: Rcinit
What you see with you X-sight is the smoke that is illuminated by your IR light.


Very interesting, I wouldn't have thought of that, but you're exactly right based on what I see. Well damn...

Charlie

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#6287935 - 05/05/16 08:39 AM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: ccoker]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9425
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Originally Posted By: ccoker
the can makes a big difference


^^^ Problem solved!
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#6288326 - 05/05/16 01:55 PM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: ChadTRG42]
CharlieCTx Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 777
Loc: Flower Mound, TX
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Originally Posted By: ccoker
the can makes a big difference


^^^ Problem solved!


Chad, can you make smokeless .308 subsonic loads? smile

Charlie

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#6288414 - 05/05/16 03:17 PM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: CharlieCTx]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9425
Loc: Lewisville, TX
^^^ Is it a bolt gun or AR? If it's a bolt gun, you can easily reduce the "flash" by using a fast burning powder and low powder charge that gets a 100% burn, which is what I use. I don't use the common subsonic powders for my 308 and 223 loads. This will help reduce the flash seen at night, but won't cycle an AR. If it's a 300 blk out cycling an AR action, you will need a suppressor to reduce the flash. Most 300 blk out subs are burning about 80%-85% of the powder in the case. So 15%-20% of the unburned powder comes out the muzzle and back into the gas system to cycle the action. This would be the perfect recipe to cause a flash that you see at night. A suppressor will reduce this flash, if not eliminate it all together. Just wait the 5 months, and you'll be good!
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#6288610 - 05/05/16 05:16 PM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: CharlieCTx]
CharlieCTx Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 777
Loc: Flower Mound, TX
I'm shooting an M&P 10 AR. As RC pointed out above, the issue appears to be from IR illuminated smoke vs flash from the shot. That appears to be accurate based on what I'm seeing. I've got a scope video
I'll post later this evening to show what I'm talking about.

So the objective would be a smokeless, subsonic .308 round that will cycle. Sounds easy to me...

Charlie

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#6288982 - 05/05/16 09:29 PM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: CharlieCTx]
Pig_Popper Online   content
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Registered: 08/16/15
Posts: 575
Loc: Fort Worth
I wouldn't bother Charlie , even a less smokey load may not work a lot of time the environmental conditions play just as big of a part in the smoke hanging around.

Go regular NV gen 2 or 3 if your averse to the whiteout effect
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#6288986 - 05/05/16 09:31 PM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: CharlieCTx]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9425
Loc: Lewisville, TX
I actually have a cycling 308 Win ammo that works shooting suppressed!!! The problem is, is that one universal load does not work in all AR-10 platforms at the desired subsonic speed. The main load I have that runs 1050 fps in a 16" AR platform will be 1300+ fps in a different AR-10, and I don't know why. But I have 2 customers, one on this forum, that has my cycling 308 Win subs out of an AR platform. If I had the rifle, I could make it work!
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#6289069 - 05/05/16 11:02 PM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: CharlieCTx]
CharlieCTx Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 777
Loc: Flower Mound, TX
This is my first hunt at night with the scope, I hadn't even figured out there was a white mode. FF to the 20:32 mark of the video itself. Looks like I'm shooting a musket. smile



Chad, probably makes sense for me to wait until I get my suppressor and given I'm in the Mound, I can bring the gun to you if that helps.

I recently bought a used ATN NVM14 for my helmet and have an IR Laser on the gun, so I'll try that next time.

Charlie

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#6289190 - 05/06/16 07:26 AM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: CharlieCTx]
Double Naught Spy Online   content
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 05/18/11
Posts: 4175
Loc: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
While thermals do occasionally pic up muzzle flash, they don't generally see the smoke. The "smoke" isn't just what we typically think of as being visible smoke, but also all the other debris that is fired from the rifle including bits of burned and unburned powder. Being blinded by all this stuff is a product of environmental conditions and use of the IR illuminator (already described). If you hunt on a night with a little breeze, the smoke becomes less of an issue. If you hunt when there is a decent wind, you may not notice it at all. If you hunt when it is dead calm, maybe when it is very humid as well, and you can be blinded for several seconds. The problem will be there with the illuminator regardless of whether you are using digital, Gen I, II, or III.

Under bad conditions, a hog not killed outright can pull a Houdini on you. You shoot, there is blinding smoke, and then the hog is gone and you don't even know which way it ran.

Quote:
I recently bought a used ATN NVM14 for my helmet and have an IR Laser on the gun, so I'll try that next time.


I hope you bought a Gen III. If you bought Gen II, then you are likely to still need an illuminator much of the time.

Going to use a laser? Now you will be introduced to the world of laser "bloom." As the laser passes through the hair of many animals, it diffuses and the spreads among the hair, all of which you will see on NV. Your 1" laser dot on the animal may end up 2-10" in size, visually. Well, a similar thing will happen when the laser passes through smoke, only the smoke is much closer to you and the intensity of the light reflected back may still cause problems with seeing thing beyond the smoke. This is because you are trying to sight down the beam and the laser is going to be reflecting most brightly along the beam.
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#6289191 - 05/06/16 07:27 AM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: Rcinit]
DoubleUp Offline
Light Foot

Registered: 07/13/15
Posts: 39
Originally Posted By: Rcinit
When shooting with my Thermals I don't see muzzle flash with or with a suppressor on it. What you see with you X-sight is the smoke that is illuminated by your IR light. If you're able to shoot without an IR illumination the smoke should not blind your picture.


Exactly right. The problem is illuminated smoke from the IR. You can easily prove this by having someone hold your IR light off the side and you'll see that you won't get the flash.

IR mounted at a feeder instead of on the rifle would also eliminate this problem. The following videos will give you two examples. In the two following video links I am shooting a Photon 4.6 XT on a Savage bolt action (204 cal.) with 22 inch sporter contour barrel. In the first one, I have to use IR on the rifle because I'm shooting a black coyote and can't see him without additional IR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUyF0MCOYWM

In this next video, I'm only using the IR lights that are mounted at the back of my shop which shine on my bait pile from sundown to sunup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoZaWGpbQ_k

You can easily see the difference and that without weapon mounted IR there is practically no IR flash from the smoke plume.

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#6289463 - 05/06/16 11:02 AM Re: Muzzle flash at night through the scope [Re: Double Naught Spy]
CharlieCTx Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 777
Loc: Flower Mound, TX
Originally Posted By: Double Naught Spy

Under bad conditions, a hog not killed outright can pull a Houdini on you. You shoot, there is blinding smoke, and then the hog is gone and you don't even know which way it ran.


Amen brother, that's exactly what has been happening, though my last one did drop on the first shot.

Quote:
I hope you bought a Gen III. If you bought Gen II, then you are likely to still need an illuminator much of the time.


It's a Gen II I would assume given it's 2 years old, but works very well with no illumination. With the X-Sight, I can only really use it for spotting.

Quote:
Going to use a laser? Now you will be introduced to the world of laser "bloom."


The impact point is still pretty small at 100 yds. I just added it before my last hunt (nothing showed) but didn't have a chance to try it. Probably not a good use of $200 after having it, but it's mounted to the top of my gas block, so it's not taking up any room I'd use for something else. Probably not an upgrade I'd recommend, but it is another targeting option I have.

Originally Posted By: DoubleUp

Exactly right. The problem is illuminated smoke from the IR. You can easily prove this by having someone hold your IR light off the side and you'll see that you won't get the flash.





I made this IR flood light setup which includes a driveway alarm (to wake me up in the stand smile ) I can turn on with a remote I set on top of the feeder when I go out. What I haven't tried is just having it on and turn my gun mounted illuminators off, which I'll try next time out. These lights really put out some illumination for their size and fairly low power draw. I have (2) 12v Feeder batteries wired in series, so they'll run probably most of the night.

Thanks,
Charlie

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