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#6273936 - 04/24/16 09:35 PM Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be
chital_shikari Online   content
Minor in training

Registered: 08/03/11
Posts: 11397
Loc: Katy, TX
Evening y'all,

I'm needing some articles on this controversy to write my "researched argument" on.
Pro/Con, different reasonings for either side.

Here are my six arguable sides:
yes for recreation (hunting, competition);
yes for specific reasons (personal safety, professional hunting)
no for hunting (not fair to the animal, culturally/heritage disbarring)
no b/c unnecessary/no training (no need for a militarized populace, dangerous to govt.)
it’s a freedom/right, leave it at that (all categories above are irrelevant, as Amendment II allows it and no laws shall be made to infringe it; rights are of the people to exercise)

If any of y'all have written anything legit on it (something I can cite and is not on this wonderful, yet un-citable forum), do put that up as well.

Thanks for the help!
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#6273939 - 04/24/16 09:40 PM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: chital_shikari]
chital_shikari Online   content
Minor in training

Registered: 08/03/11
Posts: 11397
Loc: Katy, TX
Also, any help towards finding good history on the MSR, AR10/15 trials, M16 evolution/failures
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#6273980 - 04/24/16 10:07 PM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: chital_shikari]
Tactical Cowboy Online   content
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 2846
Loc: Abilene
The book "The Gun" is about the AK, and has plenty of info on the downfalls of the early M16.

Just quote Hillary if you want info on why we don't need ARs lol.
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#6273982 - 04/24/16 10:09 PM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: Tactical Cowboy]
chital_shikari Online   content
Minor in training

Registered: 08/03/11
Posts: 11397
Loc: Katy, TX
Originally Posted By: Tactical Cowboy
The book "The Gun" is about the AK, and has plenty of info on the downfalls of the early M16.

Just quote Hillary if you want info on why we don't need ARs lol.
Thanks! Will look at that book.
And that's a good one roflmao but I need some credibility here smile
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#6274035 - 04/24/16 10:54 PM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: chital_shikari]
Toxarch Online   content
Pro Tracker

Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 1680
Loc: Parker County
The "Modular Sniper Rifle" is just a bolt action rifle. Why wouldn't someone want a hunter to have an accurate rifle?
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It is far more important to be able to hit the target than it is to haggle over who makes a weapon or who pulls a trigger.

— Dwight D. Eisenhower

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#6274068 - 04/25/16 12:56 AM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: Toxarch]
chital_shikari Online   content
Minor in training

Registered: 08/03/11
Posts: 11397
Loc: Katy, TX
Originally Posted By: Toxarch
The "Modular Sniper Rifle" is just a bolt action rifle. Why wouldn't someone want a hunter to have an accurate rifle?
That's the Remington MSR. MSR is also shorthand for "modern sporting rifle."
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#6274103 - 04/25/16 06:33 AM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: chital_shikari]
Slow Drifter Online   content


Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 4256
Loc: Central Texas
April 2013 "Guns and Ammo" has a good article by Dick Metcalf on AR-10's that incudes some interesting early development facts. Short 3-page read but has some very interesting history including development difficulties and early failures due to manuacturers and salesmen going against designers and engineers.

April 2016 "Texas Monthly" has a lot of Texas specific gun specifics and info.


Edited by Slow Drifter (04/25/16 06:36 AM)
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#6274118 - 04/25/16 06:53 AM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: chital_shikari]
jeffbird Online   content


Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 1722
Chital,

Here are some ideas for you.

Most reporters have zero understanding of firearms and what constitutes "powerful." Every story begins, the perp used a "high powered rifle" to refer to 5.56. Your deer rifle is dramatically more powerful than most any 5.56 rounds. Might want to discuss the science of ballistics/"power" and where the 5.56 fits in. Might be interesting to note some of the laws of other states than require at least 6mm/243 as the minimum acceptable "power" for hunting deer. If a 5.56 rifle can be banned because it is "too powerful," what happens to deer rifles?

For a starting point on citizens' rights under the Second Amendment, look at the District of Columbia v. Heller opinion, and McDonald v. City of Chicago.

Here is a link to the blog of the Supreme Court where it is posted for the public.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/07-290.pdf

The right exists to keep power in citizens hands sufficient to prevent an authoritarian government. The Second Amendment has nothing to do with duck hunting.

The British citizens living in the colonies in the 1770's owned, and built, the cutting edge rifle technology of the time, superior to the weapons of the British Army. The colonists, revolutionaries in our eyes and terrorist criminals in the government's eye, had rifles that could shoot farther and more accurately than the rifles of the British Army. There is a lesson in there and plenty of online resources for some interesting reading.

The FBI Crime Statistics are a wealth of objective information about which weapons are used in homicides. It is far different than the mass media would have you believe.

I am going to leave it to you to do the analysis and thinking for your assignment, but look at the break down of weapons used in homicides.

Here's a link:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr...de-data-table-8

For the last year the data is reported, rifles of all types considered together were used in 323 in homicides. In comparison, knives were used in 1,694. Even fists and hands were used more than twice as often - 728 - more than double the number.

Another thing to consider is where does this rank in with the causes of death the in the United States.

Here is a starting point for some data for comparison: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lcwk9_2013.pdf

What grade are you in Chital? Impressed you are tackling such a topic.

Good luck with your paper, lots of interesting things to consider with that subject.


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#6274432 - 04/25/16 10:52 AM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: chital_shikari]
Earl Online   content
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 2765
Loc: Plano, TX
It all boils down to the 2nd Amendment issue, that is the central focus. There is no grey area at all. You either believe that the 2nd Amendment exists solely to give individuals the right to own firearms and that it cannot be infringed. That we individuals as a whole make up the well regulated militia and that we should be armed with weapons equitable to the standing army in order to be able to in times of tyranny - stand up to them for the sake of preserving liberty and a free republic. Or you don't. The 2nd Amendment isn't about hunting and it isn't about self defense. It's about having the means to stand up to tyranny. MSR's in this day and time are central to that ability.

As an aside, MSR is not Modern Sniper Rifle it is Modern Sporting Rifle. It's basically a term used only recently as it is more acceptable in parlance than Assault Rifle (which these guns are not since they are not select fire and sometimes don't even shoot intermediate cartridges - which true assault rifles do). Personally I think it's a bastardization as many people took to calling them Military Style Rifles, but if you replace Military with Modern it doesn't sound so bad right? PC finding it's way even into the black rifle crowd (face palm)....


Edited by Earl (04/25/16 11:04 AM)
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#6274709 - 04/25/16 01:59 PM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: jeffbird]
chital_shikari Online   content
Minor in training

Registered: 08/03/11
Posts: 11397
Loc: Katy, TX
Originally Posted By: jeffbird
Chital,

Here are some ideas for you.

Most reporters have zero understanding of firearms and what constitutes "powerful." Every story begins, the perp used a "high powered rifle" to refer to 5.56. Your deer rifle is dramatically more powerful than most any 5.56 rounds. Might want to discuss the science of ballistics/"power" and where the 5.56 fits in. Might be interesting to note some of the laws of other states than require at least 6mm/243 as the minimum acceptable "power" for hunting deer. If a 5.56 rifle can be banned because it is "too powerful," what happens to deer rifles?

For a starting point on citizens' rights under the Second Amendment, look at the District of Columbia v. Heller opinion, and McDonald v. City of Chicago.

Here is a link to the blog of the Supreme Court where it is posted for the public.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/07-290.pdf

The right exists to keep power in citizens hands sufficient to prevent an authoritarian government. The Second Amendment has nothing to do with duck hunting.

The British citizens living in the colonies in the 1770's owned, and built, the cutting edge rifle technology of the time, superior to the weapons of the British Army. The colonists, revolutionaries in our eyes and terrorist criminals in the government's eye, had rifles that could shoot farther and more accurately than the rifles of the British Army. There is a lesson in there and plenty of online resources for some interesting reading.

The FBI Crime Statistics are a wealth of objective information about which weapons are used in homicides. It is far different than the mass media would have you believe.

I am going to leave it to you to do the analysis and thinking for your assignment, but look at the break down of weapons used in homicides.

Here's a link:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr...de-data-table-8

For the last year the data is reported, rifles of all types considered together were used in 323 in homicides. In comparison, knives were used in 1,694. Even fists and hands were used more than twice as often - 728 - more than double the number.

Another thing to consider is where does this rank in with the causes of death the in the United States.

Here is a starting point for some data for comparison: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lcwk9_2013.pdf

What grade are you in Chital? Impressed you are tackling such a topic.

Good luck with your paper, lots of interesting things to consider with that subject.

Indeed, the press is full of baloney, which is why I asked on here! I'm dual credit at community college, for which this assignment is. Thank you sir.

Thanks to all the replies. Will def look at all the articles mentioned!
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#6274718 - 04/25/16 02:06 PM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: chital_shikari]
jeffbird Online   content


Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 1722
You're welcome.

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#6274750 - 04/25/16 02:29 PM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: chital_shikari]
TexFlip Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 08/18/12
Posts: 8643
Loc: Harris County
Title the paper "Every Gun Law is an Infringement".
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#6275144 - 04/25/16 08:35 PM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: TexFlip]
chital_shikari Online   content
Minor in training

Registered: 08/03/11
Posts: 11397
Loc: Katy, TX
Originally Posted By: TexFlip
Title the paper "Every Gun Law is an Infringement".
I'd have to disagree with this, as the 2nd Amendment itself is a law entitling a right. And because it doesn't make as much sense as it should, in theory.

Gonna use this as my AR15 history thing: http://www.gundigest.com/article/the-ar-16m16-the-rifle-that-was-never-supposed-to-be
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#6275157 - 04/25/16 08:44 PM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: TexFlip]
SapperTitan Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 11/17/10
Posts: 17081
Loc: Killeen/Ft Hood, TX
Originally Posted By: TexFlip
Title the paper "Every Gun Law is an Infringement".
x1 Billion.
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Originally Posted By: bill oxner
I could never repay you for the pleasure I've gotten out of your meat package.


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#6275159 - 04/25/16 08:46 PM Re: Civilian Ownership of MSRs: a research paper to-be [Re: chital_shikari]
jeffbird Online   content


Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 1722
Originally Posted By: chital_shikari
Originally Posted By: TexFlip
Title the paper "Every Gun Law is an Infringement".
I'd have to disagree with this, as the 2nd Amendment itself is a law entitling a right. And because it doesn't make as much sense as it should, in theory.

Gonna use this as my AR15 history thing: http://www.gundigest.com/article/the-ar-16m16-the-rifle-that-was-never-supposed-to-be


Go read the first section of the Heller opinion regarding the meaning of the Second Amendment and the language. They go through the language and clauses with detailed explanations that make a lot of sense.

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