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#6251227 - 04/07/16 02:27 PM Decheat
hunting_guy Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 09/09/15
Posts: 163
Loc: Central Texas
For de-cheating dogs for the first time, do you guys use more, less, or the same collar pressure that you would use for say FTP of FF? I would think slightly more pressure would be in order since you really want the dog to leave and return on the same line regardless of cover.

But I'm not certain so that's why I am asking before I start.

Finally finished up with land "T", backs, and overs. I'm going to start water "T" next week... and I'll probably follow up with water and land decheat right after that.

In addition, I'm going to go back through all of the casting drills with no collar and no pressure in addition to some steadying to shot drills and marking (it's been a loooong time since I've worked on that type of thing with him) to prepare him for his hunt tests.
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#6251384 - 04/07/16 04:51 PM Re: Decheat [Re: hunting_guy]
passthru Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 10868
Loc: Saginaw, Tx
I have never used a collar. If my dog doesn't take the line I need her to I stop her and call her back.
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#6251416 - 04/07/16 05:17 PM Re: Decheat [Re: hunting_guy]
maximumintensityretriever Offline
Tracker

Registered: 04/16/13
Posts: 512
Loc: Longview, Texas
Are you following a program? Decheat is not the best option for teaching the "more water" concept and in no way teaches a line. It can tear a dog down as can calling back every time.
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#6251511 - 04/07/16 06:42 PM Re: Decheat [Re: hunting_guy]
Birdhunter61 Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 368
I get mine running cold blinds pretty good before I do cheating singles.
Robby

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#6251756 - 04/07/16 09:56 PM Re: Decheat [Re: hunting_guy]
Troubador Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 05/22/12
Posts: 487
if you don't have any hunt test coming up soon i would hold off on de cheating till a little further like robbie said, doing good cold blinds. then try something not as cheaty and then narrow the angle down more and more till its more cheaty. I've seen it handled 2 ways. one was set up a cheaty single and if the dog cheats you say no and bring back in and re throw bird. I've seen others throw mark and if dog starts to cheat you stop him and handle him and not call back in to re do. then after you have "shown" them the line you want them to take you re run in it and then if they cheat thats when you use pressure. i am NOOOOOO trainer so this could be way wrong. Robbie has forgotten more than i will ever know.

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#6251972 - 04/08/16 08:17 AM Re: Decheat [Re: hunting_guy]
hunting_guy Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 09/09/15
Posts: 163
Loc: Central Texas
I started following Chris Akin's program. He decheats for water using a collar and pressure.

He utilizes a pond and will throw a bumper along the edge of a pond, in the water but close to the shore. Sends the dog for the bumper, the dog runs out and gets the bumper and if he gets out on land to return the bumper and doesn't keep the original line in the water, then pressure is applied via collar from the time the dog steps on the bank until the bumper is returned. If the dog keeps the line in the water returning the bumper then pressure is not applied. He does this over and over until the dog no longer gets out on the bank to return the bumper.

It looked like a very effective and easy system for decheating in water.

But if you guys say it would be better to wait, then I'll wait. It's not something that needs to happen now... it's going to take me a week or two to get water "T' completed.
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#6251999 - 04/08/16 08:36 AM Re: Decheat [Re: hunting_guy]
Troubador Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 05/22/12
Posts: 487
so he starts to use the collar on the very first retrieve? I've always been told you show them what you want first by handling then you use pressure to make them do it. have to teach first, if not you are burning him and he doesn't know any better.

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#6252099 - 04/08/16 09:54 AM Re: Decheat [Re: hunting_guy]
scalebuster Online   content
Pro Tracker

Registered: 11/25/10
Posts: 1902
What's a decheat?

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#6252109 - 04/08/16 09:58 AM Re: Decheat [Re: hunting_guy]
Cast Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 14901
Loc: North Texas - God's Country
An ace up de sleeve.
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#6252238 - 04/08/16 11:51 AM Re: Decheat [Re: Birdhunter61]
BradyBuck Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 5124
Loc: Abilene, TX
Originally Posted By: Birdhunter61
I get mine running cold blinds pretty good before I do cheating singles.
Robby


I would think you would need to have your dog to the level mentioned above. You want your dog to be taking reliable casts so you can show him/her what you want.

Correct me if I'm wrong but after Double T Id think you'd want to do Swim-by.


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#6252539 - 04/08/16 05:07 PM Re: Decheat [Re: hunting_guy]
maximumintensityretriever Offline
Tracker

Registered: 04/16/13
Posts: 512
Loc: Longview, Texas
I'm familiar with decheat that Chris shows in the video however it's a very antiquated method of getting a dog to take the water route. It doesn't work for all dogs and can create serious water issues. Also, it does not teach a line, angle entry, or any skill other than getting in the water or more specifically to seek the water. Most modern training methods teach swimby and semi advanced handling prior to cheating singles as Robby stated. This allows you to take the pressure off the dog and use handling as a method of teaching the entry and line you want them to take. Decheat is only really used anymore for dogs that are not going to do advanced work such as a meat dog. It is also seen as a way to rush through the lower stakes of hunt tests but does not create a fundamentally sound dog.
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#6252886 - 04/08/16 11:18 PM Re: Decheat [Re: hunting_guy]
Bruin Offline
Light Foot

Registered: 01/08/16
Posts: 21
Loc: Beaumont, TX
Being an amateur...... I would seek out the advice and available training classes from proven pro trainers before I tried a training method
like decheat.
Seems Maximumintensityretriever may be giving you some sound advice

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#6254586 - 04/10/16 04:56 PM Re: Decheat [Re: Birdhunter61]
Angie B Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 04/03/08
Posts: 1429
Loc: Aubrey, TX
Originally Posted By: Birdhunter61
I get mine running cold blinds pretty good before I do cheating singles.
Robby


This,,, I also like my young dogs comfortable handling on marks.

Angie
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#6255309 - 04/11/16 10:01 AM Re: Decheat [Re: maximumintensityretriever]
hunting_guy Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 09/09/15
Posts: 163
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: maximumintensityretriever
I'm familiar with decheat that Chris shows in the video however it's a very antiquated method of getting a dog to take the water route. It doesn't work for all dogs and can create serious water issues. Also, it does not teach a line, angle entry, or any skill other than getting in the water or more specifically to seek the water. Most modern training methods teach swimby and semi advanced handling prior to cheating singles as Robby stated. This allows you to take the pressure off the dog and use handling as a method of teaching the entry and line you want them to take. Decheat is only really used anymore for dogs that are not going to do advanced work such as a meat dog. It is also seen as a way to rush through the lower stakes of hunt tests but does not create a fundamentally sound dog.


I'm not gonna worry about decheat for now then (based on the video, it looked fairly simple but if it could cause issues, I'm going to avoid it for now). I'm going to finish up his water "T" first, then go back and brush up on steadying to shot and some more difficult marks using taller cover and water (for hunt test purposes).

I don't think I've worked on his steadiness to shot since back in November/December. I'll take him to one of the ponds we actually hunt with some blanks and get someone to throw bumpers from a concealed position. That will be a good change of pace for him, all we have done is casting and force drills for the last 2 months or so with a few fun bumpers mixed in.
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