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At what point do you call it good?
#6216281
03/09/16 07:44 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
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ZK-315
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At what point are yall calling your loads good, and begin to use that particular load?
Gun: Custom 7mm WSM - 1:8" twist 24" barrel, suppressed 180gr. Berger Hunting VLD seated to mag length 2.950" RL-22
Reason I ask, I don't know if I'm being overly critical of the new gun I just had built. I started working up a load for it and was doing 5 bullets in 0.5gr increments. I found the tightest group and then went to 0.1gr increments around it to find "the load" it likes. I've also only tried 1 powder.
I feel that I did pretty well and put 5 rounds at 0.453" (center to center) at 100 yards....but there was still paper between them. I don't ever plan to do competition shooting, but shooting 1000 yards and hunting is what I built this gun for and I feel it could be better? I don't know.
I worked a load for my wife's box stock Remington 700 BDL 22-250 and had 4 bullets at 0.467". I guess I just feel a custom built rifle should be better than her box gun.
Am I being too critical of this custom gun or is there a smaller group to be had? At what point do you call your load good?
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216293
03/09/16 07:50 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
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redchevy
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You may not be able to get it close enough to the lands if your are seating by max mag length.
I would try different powders and different bullets before I wrote it off with a group/load I wasn't happy with.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216299
03/09/16 07:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
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ZK-315
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Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with it. but comparing this $$ custom rifle (0.453") to my wife's bone stock rifle (0.467") that 0.014" came at a pretty penny. Granted, I can shoot much bigger animals with this one vs. my wife's, but I don't know how tight I should get the groups before I call it done. Know what I mean?
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216302
03/09/16 07:58 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
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ZK-315
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On your first point, I've thought about the accuracy about getting closer to the lands, but I want to have 1 load and be done. I don't want to sound lazy, but I want my load to work for hunting (which this group is better than my 30-06 big time) but also something I could pick up and go shoot 1000 yards this afternoon at the range. I don't want a load for hunting, then a load for the range.
Last edited by ZK-315; 03/09/16 07:59 PM.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216473
03/09/16 09:29 PM
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HicksHunter
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I'm always chasing the x-ring. I'm hesitant to load up more than a couple hundred at any time because then that ties up expensive rifle brass that I could use for further load development. And I've never tested a load in enough conditions to be confident that I'll punch the center every time. That's just me though.
The thing about finding that load that shoots .25" every time is that it takes either a lot of time and money investment, or a lot of luck. No other way to get around it. I'd try researching different powders that work well with the 180gr pill and try them out. Who knows, you might be surprised!
If you're unwilling to load to longer than mag length, you're just going to have to sample powders.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216510
03/09/16 09:56 PM
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TXMikeMcC
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For me, it depends on the rifle/cartridge as to how far I'll go with load development.
It would be nice to have a few more details on the rifle, but assuming it's a custom action and an aftermarket barrel I would probably try 2-3 other bullets in that weight range to see if you get noticeably tighter groups; I would leave the powder alone. It's also important to keep in mind, Berger VLDs typically like to be very close to the lands, if not jammed in them; it's possible you're seating them too far back due to the mag length restriction. I'd probably try an SMK, or a Berger Hybrid (or something less sensitive to seating depth) just to see how they perform.
That said, a consistent 1/2 MOA rifle is good enough to win competitions, so worst case that's what you end up with. I would hesitate to compare the 7WSM to the 22-250 in terms of out of the box accuracy though. I know lots of F-Class guys are running 7WSMs/7RSAUMs etc, and they're very accurate, but they're still harder to get consistently great accuracy from than their smaller bore counterparts (at least from my experience). I know the feeling though, I've got rifles worth thousands with custom tubes on them that won't even begin to touch my bone stock 700 SPS Varmint in .223; it's just the way it goes sometimes I guess.
Edit: I think you're approaching this correctly though. With a 7WSM I wouldn't spend more than 100-200 rounds messing with load development; I'd find what works good enough (and maybe that's what you've found), then call it done. I've seen some guys try to chase bughole groups with new loads all the way up until they shot out the throat.
Last edited by TXMikeMcC; 03/09/16 09:59 PM.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216537
03/09/16 10:12 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
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GLC
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I have only been reloading for about a year and a half. I have been very fortunate with the three different calibers and four guns that I loaded for turned out great as far as my expectation. I was able to get them touching at 100 yards from .188 to .375 c to c. I did do several load workups, first .3 grain increments about 20 different loads, 3 each. Then picking the best loads and then going between .1 to .2 grains on either side to once again get the best one. Luckily everything worked out. I have had to go back a couple of times to tweak a little when I ran out a certain lot # of powder but it was pretty to get things back in sink again.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216564
03/09/16 10:25 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
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ZK-315
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It's built off of a Remington 700 action that's been trued, 24" Brux barrel with a 1-8 twist, manners EH4 carbon fiber stock, timney trigger (I may need to lighten the pull on it slightly though), and running a silencerco harvester.
I do have 10 of the berger 180gr hybrids that a buddy gave me to test out. I haven't shot them yet, but have loaded them to 63.1gr of the RL-22 that shot best with the VLDs. I've just been waiting for the sun to poke out and the wind to die down a bit.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216579
03/09/16 10:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,481
redchevy
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Your predicament is why I struggle with the whole building a custom gun deal. I have a rem 700 adl 223 rem that is bone stock with tupoware stock leupold mounts and a simmons scope that with hand loads will shoot one ragged hole. Have a Rem 700 sendero 270 win with leupold mounds and old leupold vxII scope that will do the same one raged hole with hand loads. My savage 243 I have not gotten to shoot that well yet... im still working on it, but I doubt it ever will.
Lots of people would have replaced the tupoware stock on my 223 without shooting it when in reality it does just fine. I find it strange when people do a build without a base line, otherwise you could have spent a butload without gaining anything.
a consistent 1/2 moa is nothing to sneeze at and will easily do as a hunting gun, don't sweat the small stuff and take it hunting.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216589
03/09/16 10:37 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
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Cleric
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You can do better. I think I was clost to that. distance edge to edge with a real caliber....300 win.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216594
03/09/16 10:42 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,216
papa45
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We have all been there, trying to develop a bughole load. Some times the endless experimentation is fun; some times it's a drag. If I had a single 1/2 MOA load for hunting as well as occasional target shooting out to 1000 yards, I'd be very happy.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216643
03/09/16 11:05 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
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ZK-315
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I struggled with the buying something vs. building something for a while. I knew I wanted something new so I could put my late grandfathers gun in the safe. It's just a rem 700 bdl 30-06, but its in 90-95% shape. To me, its just a good looking gun that has a ton of sentimental value to it. I don't want to bugger it up in the brush, so I needed something. I shot a friends custom rifle and I was sold, unfortunately lol. Although I'm pretty new to reloading, I felt I did awesome with the 22-250. All I could find was anything under an inch at 100 yards was great. Well 1/2" with hers and I was thrilled. Now to this new one, I knew I would be limited to mag depth and wasn't sure how much better I could get it. I'm excited to try the Hybrids out, as the responses above aren't the only ones I've seen about how its more forgiving with the limited seating depth I have. I guess I just got a little over-zealous when I bought the VLDs as I bought 4 boxes of them If these Hybrids do as yall are saying, i'll have a few VLD's up for grabs. If they don't produce, I may just call it good, or try different powders. We'll see how much time I have on my hands at the time. Little man is supposed to show up in a couple of weeks.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216649
03/09/16 11:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
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ZK-315
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There's 5 shots here..
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216663
03/09/16 11:13 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,442
kmon11
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A lot depends on the gun like some have said already. In a custom like described if I have a load that is consistently sub half MOA I am happy. Could it be better possibly, am I any better, doubt it. You can chase that most accurate load until the barrel wares out and start over with a new one or find a load good enough for the use it is for and go shoot and have fun. For me that is sub half MOA and my customs will do less than that but am happy if I can shoot that well day in and out with the gun and load. That doesn't count for the occasional sub 1/4 inch group but those days don't happen most of the time.
Have a 3 that if I do my part they will shoot .3 or smaller Still not disappointed with myself when I shoot half inch groups with it.
With Berger bullets heavier for weight, you might find that load is more like .3 MOA at longer ranges where the bullet "goes to sleep" or at least that is what I have been told and with a 140gr 6.5 bullet I have seen groups .6 inch groups at 325 yards with a load that averages .3 at 100.
The Hybrid bullets are less seating depth dependent than the standard VLDs and might help get a little better accuracy at magazine length.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216774
03/10/16 12:19 AM
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Joined: Mar 2012
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Cleric
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I am surprised you weren't touching lands on a custom chamber. Generally they are tight
Also I find it easier to measure edge to edge and subtract bullet diameter.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216784
03/10/16 12:28 AM
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Joined: Jul 2012
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603Country
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Heck, try another powder. As for the bullet, I'd probably stay with what I planned to hunt with, if hunting was the objective. If long range target shooting is the plan, try another well regarded bullet.
If you don't, you'll always wonder how much better you might have done.
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6216920
03/10/16 01:37 AM
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Joined: Apr 2013
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tenyearsgone
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At what point are yall calling your loads good, and begin to use that particular load?
Gun: Custom 7mm WSM - 1:8" twist 24" barrel, suppressed 180gr. Berger Hunting VLD seated to mag length 2.950" RL-22
Reason I ask, I don't know if I'm being overly critical of the new gun I just had built. I started working up a load for it and was doing 5 bullets in 0.5gr increments. I found the tightest group and then went to 0.1gr increments around it to find "the load" it likes. I've also only tried 1 powder.
I feel that I did pretty well and put 5 rounds at 0.453" (center to center) at 100 yards....but there was still paper between them. I don't ever plan to do competition shooting, but shooting 1000 yards and hunting is what I built this gun for and I feel it could be better? I don't know.
I worked a load for my wife's box stock Remington 700 BDL 22-250 and had 4 bullets at 0.467". I guess I just feel a custom built rifle should be better than her box gun.
Am I being too critical of this custom gun or is there a smaller group to be had? At what point do you call your load good? I call it good when I've maxed out several different bullet and powder combinations. I just give the extra away. With the technology and market competition today, I'm not surprised an out of the box rifle is just as accurate as a custom job. They have the technology to keep costs down. This is why when I see custom bolt guns I'm not impressed (besides I think a lot are ugly). My most accurate weapons are the AR's I've built with basic hand tools. The 6.8 shoots .1 moa while the other 3 .223 AR's shoot no more than .3 moa.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6217012
03/10/16 02:47 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
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noylj
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Just to butt in-- Unless it is a 100% mechanical rest, YOU are still part of the group. How good are YOU? Need to move out to 300 yards to get a real measure.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6217188
03/10/16 05:12 AM
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DStroud
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"With the technology and market competition today, I'm not surprised an out of the box rifle is just as accurate as a custom job. They have the technology to keep costs down. This is why when I see custom bolt guns I'm not impressed (besides I think a lot are ugly). My most accurate weapons are the AR's I've built with basic hand tools. The 6.8 shoots .1 moa while the other 3 .223 AR's shoot no more than .3 moa."
If your AR' s shoot that well you need to be shooting Bench Rest matches.
"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."
Jack O'Connor 1963
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: noylj]
#6217423
03/10/16 02:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
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ZK-315
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I am surprised you weren't touching lands on a custom chamber. Generally they are tight
Also I find it easier to measure edge to edge and subtract bullet diameter. It is a tight chamber and I measured where the lands were, but cant remember off the top of my head. It was quite a bit over the .020" though. Just to butt in-- Unless it is a 100% mechanical rest, YOU are still part of the group. How good are YOU? Need to move out to 300 yards to get a real measure. I wont disagree with you here. I was on a bench with front and rear bags, but at this time of year in texas, its difficult to find a day with hardly any wind and the closest 300+ yard range from me is about an hour away with no wind break. The local range here is only 100 yards and has decent wind cover.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6217446
03/10/16 02:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
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Gemlin
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Im a bit different. If a gun shoots 1" or less at 100y, I call it good. It will be good enough for neck shots and will kill any animal I aim it at.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: DStroud]
#6217579
03/10/16 03:36 PM
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Joined: Apr 2013
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tenyearsgone
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"With the technology and market competition today, I'm not surprised an out of the box rifle is just as accurate as a custom job. They have the technology to keep costs down. This is why when I see custom bolt guns I'm not impressed (besides I think a lot are ugly). My most accurate weapons are the AR's I've built with basic hand tools. The 6.8 shoots .1 moa while the other 3 .223 AR's shoot no more than .3 moa."
If your AR' s shoot that well you need to be shooting Bench Rest matches. I know. I've gotten into IDPA lately along with homebrewing. I just don't have time and am having a lot of fun getting my butt kicked by other people who are faster than me.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6218013
03/10/16 08:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
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J.G.
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Everyone is ignoring the suppressor. You've got a sub half MOA load with a long weight hanging off the end of the barrel. Yes you tuned the load with the can on, thus not changing harmonics. There's a 50/50 chance you take the can off and the load goes to poop.
I'd bet $5 that if you started over with load development, without the suppressor you'd come in smaller than your .4" group. But you want to run it suppressed, and I don't blame you, they are a thing of beauty. I'd run it just like you have it shooting. That is a more than capable thousand yard combination, I promise.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: ZK-315]
#6218041
03/10/16 09:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
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ZK-315
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Correct, it will wear the suppresser any time I'm shooting it. It's just so nice and quiet, with very little recoil.
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Re: At what point do you call it good?
[Re: J.G.]
#6218266
03/10/16 11:37 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
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Strongbad
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Everyone is ignoring the suppressor. You've got a sub half MOA load with a long weight hanging off the end of the barrel. Yes you tuned the load with the can on, thus not changing harmonics. Not ignoring it, but the OP hasn't done enough workup. It sounds like the potential is certainly there. 1 bullet/powder combo and no seating depth tweaks, especially on a custom rifle that should be accurate enough to show the results of small changes in the same, is not enough. Do yourself a favor and keep at it (with the suppressor on). Keep working on that combo... work with the seating depth etc. and try some other combos as well.
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