I've been working on loads for a .223 bolt gun here, and it has been a while since I cleaned it so yesterday I got a lot of carbon out of there, but strangely enough there was no detectable copper, just a lot of carbon. Anyway, I soon had it as clean as new, inside.

I kind of figured that the first group out of that clean barrel would be pretty lousy. All of our firearms experts tell us that a clean rifle barrel cannot possibly shoot well until it's been properly fouled - coated thoroughly inside with copper and carbon.

Stupid rifle!





The first group was noticeably better than what the gun had been doing before I cleaned it - and the second group from a fouled tube was right back to what it had been like before cleaning.

This is not the only rifle that I have owned that was stupid this way... A Savage model 16 in .243 I had insisted upon shooting significantly better with a clean barrel. Especially stupid was a Browning A-Bolt SS in .300 WM that would put the first three rounds out of a cold, clean barrel into 1/2" at 100 yards, but if allowed to foul up, the groups would open up to 3/4" in short order. (Cold, dirty barrel)

Benchrest rifles must be especially stupid. Those guys typically clean those after just a few rounds.

Has anyone else here owned a rifle that was stupid that way, obviously not paying much attention to what our experts have to say?

I don't know, but I'm gonna find out !

Charles, I think it might be revealing to see what the rifle does with 20 or 30 rounds down the tube. It could be in a "transition" state at ten rounds.

But then again, every barrel might behave differently.

It had a bit over fifty rounds through it when I decided to clean it. Maybe as many as seventy-five or a hundred, I wasn't keeping track of that. I have been trying a variety of bullets, bullet weights, powders and charges, trying to find out what it likes. What I do is load ten rounds of what I'm trying out and then shoot two five-shot groups. I finally established that is most happy with 55 grain bullets, not the 40 and 50 grain bullets that I expected it to like with its 1:12" twist.

68 grain bullets key-hole and go all over the place.

I've had great results with several powders with the 55 grain bullets. (748, X-Terminator, H-4895, H-335) - So much so in fact that it's hard to say at this point which one it really likes best. It does very well with light loads of AA5744 too, but at low velocity of course. The others I've pushed pretty close to max.

The 55 grain bullet groups all seemed much the same - until I cleaned it and saw an immediate improvement that only lasted long enough for it to develop a bit of fouling.

One mistake I may have made was to try several different powders without cleaning it. I have heard more than a few times that mixing the fouling from different powders can throw things off. - I dunno, but this is what I have heard.

Every barrel definitely behaves differently. I have owned dozens of rifles over the years, and each seems to have its own likes and dislikes, even identical rifles from the same maker.

This one is really unusual, as it doesn't appear to pick up much copper at all. - Just carbon. I can clear out the carbon with judicious brushing and when the patches come out a very light gray, I let the barrel soak for fifteen minutes with Hoppes#9, and then a clean, dry patch comes out still just light gray. No blue at all. I've never seen a rifle behave that way before.

I cleaned it again this afternoon, and will give it a thorough inspection with the video borescope tomorrow morning. It's amazing how much you don't see by just peering down the bore with a light. If there's any copper in there, I'll see it in the morning.

If your goal is to get every bit of copper out of your barrel, run a patch of Sweets 762 down the barrel followed by a patch of hydrogen peroxide. Blue foam will pour out the muzzle as you push the second patch through.

I saw a little copper in there, like a thin wash or smear, just enough so some color was visible. Everything looked pretty good, the throat area looked new. I got a chance to examine the muzzle area where I had crowned it and I was happy with what I saw there. The PTG crowning tools do a great job, a lot faster than using the lathe and with no disassembly of the gun required. - I didn't even take the scope off when I did it.

We have wind now out of the north and it will be raining for a few days, a good chance for me to do some inside work that I've been putting off. - Not much chance that I'll be shooting though. Wouldn't you know it, a couple of pounds of powder that I ordered a month or so back showed up today. When it quits raining and dries up, I'll have plenty of rounds loaded up and ready to go!

Some say that metal fouling from "bullet A" can screw up results seen with "bullet B," so all fouling needs to be removed before trying another bullet. I have no idea whether that's true, but I can't say it's baloney either. Could be true to varying extents with different components.

My neighbors single shot .270 is the opposite. It will be off after cleaning, takes about 10 rnds to start to get back to a small grouping.

I know which I'd rather have!

So you have only put 10rds each of various loads with no consistency?

Not sure what you are talking about, or to who. Maybe if your question was phrased more sensibly it would help in making out what you are asking about.

I have a 17 Remington that was doing similar, after about 20 shots groups would start to open up and bu 30 they were a lot larger. When CFE223 came out I tried it and at 70 rounds and counting without it and still going with good accuracy. Those little 25gr bullets at 4250fps copperfoul the barrel quickly. Other than that all rifles I have owned have shot better after a few shots.

It's towards you. I didn't see anyone else talking about just shooting 10rds.

That's because there's not much point in shooting more than that with a particular load, when developing a load for a rifle. Two five-round groups tells me all that I need to know about a particular load.

The fact that you don't see anyone else talking about shooting ten rounds doesn't have any particular meaning. - Everybody has their own way of doing things, and I obtain good results using my method. - Results are what counts.

When doing a ladder test, I fire one round of each particular load. - But that is a different kind of test altogether.

Once I have a load developed and am out there shooting for fun, I usually load up 40-50 rounds at a time. Rarely more than that. The sportsmans club is less than two miles away, the main hold-up in going there is unlocking and re-locking the gate, and I usually have the place to myself.

If I had to drive a long way, or pay each time I shoot, I'd probably haul more loads around with me. In my case I pay annually, and it takes maybe five minutes to get there.



A lot of shooters prefer three round groups, which will tell you all that you really need to know for hunting big game.

I target shoot much more than I hunt, so I tend to prefer five, and occasionally ten round groups.

I still don't get where you come up with the "no consistency" comment. It doesn't make a lot of sense, from this end.