I... did? Posted it this am (~9:40). 9mm (not +P) is ~200fps faster at a like bullet weight (124/125) than .38+P
9mm +P adds about another 100fps. (Speer Gold Dots -- http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx)

According to Hornady's 2015 chart, their Classic loads for both:

9mm MV/FT LBS
115gr XTP 1155/341
124gr XTP 1110/310
147gr XTP 975/310

.38 Special
125gr XTP 900/225
158gr XTP 800/225


9mm +P
124gr XTP 1110/339
135gr FL 1110/369

.38 +P
110gr FTX 1090/290

Not seeing the comparison.

I've found 3 factory loads for the 9mm at 500 ft-lbs or higher, none for the 38 special.

Buffalo Bore 500 ft-lbs 115 grain 1400 fps
Double Tap 511 ft-lbs 115 grain 1415 fps
Underwood 501 ft-lbs 115 grain 1400 fps

I think everyone should read and consider these thoughts.

I've heard of or read them all, nothing really new there other than one comment that caught my eye and even it I don't agree with. Hydro-static Shock, he prefers the term Dynamic. I prefer the term hydraulic because that's what your actually seeing take place.

The typical bullet weight for the 38 Spl is somewhat heavier (30-something grains heavier) than the typical 9mm bullet weight. Energy is a function of bullet weight and velocity - not just velocity.

How fast does the 9mm push 158 grain bullets?

What I'm trying to get you to take a look at is a real world comparison of standard loads, with no fudging the numbers around to "prove" any particular point. - But you seem to be resisting the idea.

So far all you've been willing to quote have been figures that do not represent standard loadings for both cartridges. You've quoted just about everything except for those two.

The 38 Spl pushes a heavier bullet - but slower. In the real world, they are very close to each other as far as energy goes. - Apples and Apples.

The heavier bullet will penetrate better, the lighter bullet might or might not expand better.

One is about as good as the other, energy-wise though.

- And neither is very close to a standard 40 S&W or 45 ACP loads energy. They are light-years behind any 10mm auto load.

I thought everyone knew that.

Self defense pistol calibers are really close in effectiveness starting from about 9mm up to .45 ACP.

ER Dr.'s cant tell by eye balling a wound or looking at the wound bullet path if it was made by a 9mm or a .45 ACP unless they recover the bullet. There is just not that much difference between pistol calibers.

You can usually tell immediately if it is a high velocity rifle wound.

For me personally I will take the lower recoil, faster follow shots, higher ammo count of 9mm.

Other calibers up to .45 ACP are good also if that is what you prefer.

Anything more than .45 ACP is too slow if you need follow up shots, which are often required with pistols.

9mm semi auto is much preferable to 6 shot .38 special in my opinion for several reasons.

I dont believe the FBI is the end all in LE, but they do know and research weapon/ammo selection as well as any one in the world, as much as I hate to admit that.

This debate is interesting, but is somewhat like the debate of which is better for deer a .308 or a .270.

Pick what you like and practice with it. Dont get bent out of shape if you dont agree.

Your life your choice.

Well said sir

I see it constantly brought up: faster follow up with a 9mm. Have any of you actually got a timer and checked your difference in split times between a 9/40/45? You will most likely be surprised at how close they are.

If not, don't keep repeating some bs you read on an internet forum somewhere.

Everything's a trade off. Articles pushing for one side of the debate or the other have a tendency to gloss over or outright omit factors favoring the other view. This one was obviously written with the idea of pushing the 9mm.

As far as performance goes, you can't trump physics. Bigger is better when it comes to performance. Bullet and load advancements apply to .40 and .45 caliber bullets also. I don't buy into all the recoil and follow up advantages for anything under .45 caliber if grown men who practice are involved. But many do.

But there are other factors besides raw performance. Ease of carry and magazine capacity being the main two. They weigh in favor of the 9mm.

I love my Glock 27 (.40). But it is just a little thick and bulky when I carry, mainly because I am a little bony guy. So I'm going to switch to a 43 for carry, because I love Glocks and that one is way more comfortable for me. YMMV.

Since they have started making .380 sized autos in 9mm, this cartridge has (in my opinion) found it's best possible home.

The Ruger LC9 is a favorite here, for those occasions where a full-size auto cannot be carried.

I've sold off my full-size 9mm autos and replaced them all with 40 S&W or better. (10mm)

The theory here is that if I'm going to utilize a full-size auto, then I will want it to be chambered for a full-size cartridge.

- But that's just me. In a self-defense situation, I want them DRT, and no two ways about it. A little sting in the web of my hand is easy to get over, it will be gone by the time the meat-wagon rolls up.

If you use enough cartridge in the first place, then follow-up shots are much less likely to be required.

I do not want to find myself in a situation where I have to pump multiple rounds into a bad guy in order to stop them. While you are spraying and praying, they are given an opportunity to shoot back - on a silver platter.

Using enough gun is your single best insurance against that happening to you, or to the folks that you are protecting.

A 9mm is always going to be better than nothing - but is it ever going to be better than a more powerful, more capable cartridge?

Nope.

Probably should carry a rifle then. 9mm/40/.45 potatoe/potatoe. 10MM/41/44/357 are certainly in a different league.

I love the people talking about physics when you should consider that there more than mass. The default argument to physics is just the beginning of the conversation, when speaking about bullet design, capacity, shot placement, ability to overcome obstacles, etc.

A 220 grain .45 traveling 850 will deliver 500Joules
A 124 grain .355 traveling 1110 will deliver 459 joule

Not a ton of difference, however, I do find these arguments amusing.

Good post.

Everybody on the forum can agree with this.

I really enjoyed reading this. It is the most honest thing I have read dissecting the psuedo-science that permeates the discussions and writings about caliber/bullet performance that have taken place for years. There is no perfect formula. There are broad truths and helpful principles, but no perfect formula. One can take any of the "formulas" floating around and show the fallaciousness of its results (i.e. many will show a speedy little cartridge like a .223 to have the same performance of a slow large cartridge like a .45-70).

I heard Pete Shepley once declare that because the velocity part of the momentum equation was a bigger number that velocity was way, way more important than arrow weight (mass). That is bunk - especially when taken to any extreme. But, bow companies have pushed velocity as the "be-all-end-all" for years, because increasing arrow speed was something that the bow companies used for years as their main selling point for folks to buy new bows. In short, he had an agenda - as most do.

As that article points out, in hunting there are literally dozens of variables with each shot. And each shot is very different for that reason. Which is why I automatically know when folks come on here saying a certain caliber always produces a "DRT" result, they either are full of it or have little experience in the field.

I find these topics very fun. They always are the same.

It goes back to the "logic" that a bigger cartridge should make a bigger whole, and that should make a difference. The truth:

It probably doesn't, or at least not enough to to matter. Lots of stuff has been written about how it doesn't matter which service cartridge you use. 9mm Luger is non-inferior to 45 auto. Probably related getting stabbed by a .355" ice pick is about the same as getting stabbed by a .451" ice pick. To top it off, 9mm non-wounding characteristics that are superior to the larger service cartridges.

Won't change anyone's mind, but always entertaining how people get their undies in a wad about what others do with their money and equipment.

I don't have anything in a wad, but pushing the 9mm as the same from a physics standpoint as a .40 or .45 is just incorrect - all else being equal. I do understand all else is not equal. But the laws of physics don't change. And they don't lie. You can equalize performance in some ways, but then "all else is NOT equal" anymore. And there are other factors for each person to consider based on their preferences of course.

That said, I am not a 9mm hater, as pointed out above.

Gotta love it!

Another discussion of possible interest:

http://africanxmag.com/debunking_ballastic_myths.htm

My dad could beat up your dad.

Tactical Cowboy no disrespect but I'm not basing it on internet BS.

I am basing it on years of personal experience and years of some pretty extensive study, training and some top level schools that I have been fortunate enough to attend.

Nearly all of your Tier 1 SME trainers recommend 9mm Glocks. In some professions thats what they call a clue.

I dont think it has to be a Glock or a 9mm, but they are dang hard to beat and are the answer for me.

This is the best hunting forum that I have found, and my hunting and hunting rifle/equipment knowledge is not up to par, thats why I come on here.

If you do need to get your information from a forum for self defense none are better than M4 Carbine Forum.

Shot placement rules in self defense just like it does in hunting, trust me the bad guy wont know if you just chest shot him with a 9mm or a 44 magnum.

A well placed shot on a whitetail wont know if you just hit him with a .243 or.300 Win. Mag.
Most people will shoot a 9mm to a much higher level just like most hunters will do the same with a .243.

Again no disrespect to anyone, everyones skill level and experiences are different, there are no concrete written in stone answers.

We are all on here because we are interested in these type of discussions and are trying to learn more.

No hard feelings , keep it fun.

Thanks guys.

Have you ever checked your split times with different guns or calibers? Ever run a bill drill with a 9mm vs a 40vs 45? I've shot all three calibers, from all different platforms (1911, glock, m&p, XD), and I shoot them all about equally. I've got splits down to .10 second with a para 16-40, although the target was off the end of the barrel. With normal shots, though, regardless of the gun or caliber, I'm in the .15- .20 range. Go shoot some USPSA or 3 gun and look at your performance. As has been stated, shot placement counts. Practical shooting is a great way to learn to shoot fast AND accurately under pressure.

Yes, and I agree there is not that much difference.

It has also been proven to me that there is very little difference in terminal performance between self defense pistol calibers.

I realize others will not believe this.

The main self defense calibers are 9mm, 357 SIG, 40 and 45. These are all great for intended purposes.

I just happen to prefer 9mm with 45 being my next choice.

Departments have been dropping 357 SIG and 40 and going 9mm and 45 with more going to 9mm.

All are fine, but for some reason a lot of people believe 9mm to be inadequate, and thats just not the case.

I define "adequate" as the minimum needed for the purposes intended in the majority of circumstances - all factors considered. In this case, self defense. I don't believe it to be inadequate.

Some people define adequate as "Will it work under some (maybe even many) circumstances for the purposes intended?" So if it will kill someone (or some animal as the case may be), they define many marginal rounds as adequate.

That's why a lot of us end up talking past each other in these caliber debates....

I agree with your definitions.