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Thermal Clip On Systems #6206964 03/02/16 05:39 PM
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Been doing tons of research, reading, looking and comparing. I'm really thinking I would like to setup my 6.8 with a standard day scope system and them add a thermal clip on to that for the night varmint/pig hunting. Does anyone have any experience with these? Looking for the good and bad of them compared with the standard thermal systems.

Thanks!



Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6207030 03/02/16 06:30 PM
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GOOD:
Don't have to change your day scope.
Zero is supposed to remain the same
Don't have to have a dedicated night rifle.
Thermal scope can be moved between rifles.
Thermal scope can be used as a spotter and then put on the rifle when game is spotted.

BAD:
Added weight of 2 scopes
Added weight on on forend making it much heavier
Possible and sometime problems with alignment, changing zero
Usually limited to 1x on the thermal scope. So your view is 1x, regardless of how much zoom you put on your day scope, you aren't getting a picture better than just a 1x scope. It is like holding a magnifying glass up to your cell phone to watch a movie and pretending it is a large screen TV.
There can be problems is mating/aligning the daylight and thermal scope, especially if the daylight scope rings are low or high.
Flexion of handguard where thermal is mounted can result in misalignment

----------------

The change of zero when repeatedly taking off and putting on the thermal is NOT supposed to happen, but I have seen it happen to 3 different guys and 2 brands of thermal. When it works, it works well and is very handy.


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Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6208285 03/03/16 05:28 PM
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Example of zeroing problems with a clip-on. In this case, it is an Armasight, but the problem isn't brand specific.
http://www.lonestarboars.com/threads/poi-problem-w-apollo-pro-640-50mm-in-front-of-day-scope.5357/


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Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6208309 03/03/16 05:43 PM
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The main issue I have with any clip-on is that its allure would be the ability to install and de-install without the need to check zero each time. That hasn't been proven, to my knowledge, to be reliable in practice. I admit, I have a problem trusting it to begin with...

Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6208404 03/03/16 07:10 PM
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What are some better solutions then? I just don't think I want a completely dedicated night rifle. I'd prefer to get this right the 1st go round.



Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6208455 03/03/16 07:56 PM
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IMO, tools are meant to do a particular job well. A scope is a tool. Digital scopes do a fair job at working night and day, but they certainly lack as compares to Gen III or thermal quality. It is to swim upstream if the requirement is to have one rifle to do all things well and include a day optic in the scenario. I use my dedicated thermal night and day with no issues. Heck, I prefer and love it because I see stuff even during the day that I would otherwise miss. Hunting 2 - 3 times a week, I can't tell you the last time I used a dedicated day optic. I have a good many excellent day optics collecting dust. If you can bring yourself to go dedicated thermal, you may find yourself in the same boat. These are just my thoughts and experience. I hope it helps you to decide.

Best of luck! up

Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: dfwroadkill] #6208463 03/03/16 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: dfwroadkill
IMO, tools are meant to do a particular job well. A scope is a tool. Digital scopes do a fair job at working night and day, but they certainly lack as compares to Gen III or thermal quality. It is to swim upstream if the requirement is to have one rifle to do all things well and include a day optic in the scenario. I use my dedicated thermal night and day with no issues. Heck, I prefer and love it because I see stuff even during the day that I would otherwise miss. Hunting 2 - 3 times a week, I can't tell you the last time I used a dedicated day optic. I have a good many excellent day optics collecting dust. If you can bring yourself to go dedicated thermal, you may find yourself in the same boat. These are just my thoughts and experience. I hope it helps you to decide.

Best of luck! up


Thanks. So you have no issues using your thermal in daylight? Never looked at it that way, but could be an end to the issue. I have been looking at the Armasight Zeus 3 336 60hz 42mm. Any thoughts on this unit?



Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6208499 03/03/16 08:24 PM
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Clip ons are around the same price as a scope.

I went with the IR Defense Mkii, clip on and scope.

Daylight isn't an issue for a good thermal.

Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6208600 03/03/16 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: Blue Tick
Thanks. So you have no issues using your thermal in daylight? Never looked at it that way, but could be an end to the issue. I have been looking at the Armasight Zeus 3 336 60hz 42mm. Any thoughts on this unit?


I personally have no issues at all using thermal during the day. I was deer hunting one mid-morning and was seeing nothing. All seemed quiet. Across the pasture from me was a wooded area that skirted the pasture I was hunting. I held my thermal monocular up and boom, there was a line of deer walking just inside the wood line. I lowered the thermal and could not see them with my eye. I grabbed my regular binocs and only got a glimpse from time to time. I would not have known they were there had I not been using thermal.

From what I have heard, folks are pleased with the Armasight product. I have only used them a few times. They use software to "white out" the areas around a target and gain more detail of the target. I have heard that the scope can lock onto a hotter target than the one you are interested in and reduce the visibility of your target. DNS should be back through at some point and can correct me or elaborate more. Basically, I think overall it is said to be a good product.

I own multiple brands. The IR Defense was mentioned above. I own the IR Patrol, the MKII and just received the new REAP IR. I love the IR Defense software and functionality, but it hasn't come without issues. My IR Patrol has been flawless. The MKII displays whatever the last menu you had up was upon recoil on my 6.8. The core on my brand new REAP IR died on the second shot from another 6.8 I own. That was yesterday. They will get them fixed, but it does demonstrate there can be issues with any of them. No issues with my ATN 640, 5X, but it is a beast and the software is showing its age. My Pulsar XD50 has not had problems and I like the PiP feature....not crazy about the sight picture, but I am spoiled to 640 cores..

There are tons of nuances with with different scopes. Features, some important, some not. Lots to consider.

Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: dfwroadkill] #6209079 03/04/16 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: dfwroadkill
Originally Posted By: Blue Tick
Thanks. So you have no issues using your thermal in daylight? Never looked at it that way, but could be an end to the issue. I have been looking at the Armasight Zeus 3 336 60hz 42mm. Any thoughts on this unit?


I personally have no issues at all using thermal during the day. I was deer hunting one mid-morning and was seeing nothing. All seemed quiet. Across the pasture from me was a wooded area that skirted the pasture I was hunting. I held my thermal monocular up and boom, there was a line of deer walking just inside the wood line. I lowered the thermal and could not see them with my eye. I grabbed my regular binocs and only got a glimpse from time to time. I would not have known they were there had I not been using thermal.

From what I have heard, folks are pleased with the Armasight product. I have only used them a few times. They use software to "white out" the areas around a target and gain more detail of the target. I have heard that the scope can lock onto a hotter target than the one you are interested in and reduce the visibility of your target. DNS should be back through at some point and can correct me or elaborate more. Basically, I think overall it is said to be a good product.

I own multiple brands. The IR Defense was mentioned above. I own the IR Patrol, the MKII and just received the new REAP IR. I love the IR Defense software and functionality, but it hasn't come without issues. My IR Patrol has been flawless. The MKII displays whatever the last menu you had up was upon recoil on my 6.8. The core on my brand new REAP IR died on the second shot from another 6.8 I own. That was yesterday. They will get them fixed, but it does demonstrate there can be issues with any of them. No issues with my ATN 640, 5X, but it is a beast and the software is showing its age. My Pulsar XD50 has not had problems and I like the PiP feature....not crazy about the sight picture, but I am spoiled to 640 cores..

There are tons of nuances with with different scopes. Features, some important, some not. Lots to consider.


I'm gathering there is lots to consider and although I used them extensively in the military I don't know much to anything about them, as far as what core to look at, 30hz or 60hz and so on. Are the pulsar units worth a look? I'd like to get the best I can for what I can afford, but the pockets don't go $5k+ or deeper on these.



Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6209498 03/04/16 03:52 PM
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Pulsar definitely is worth the look.

I have the HD38A monocular for scanning and just got the XD50A scope for shooting. I can't wait to run the scope through it's courses. I've been using the monocular for several months and my experience is similar to DFW. I've seen lots of deer inside a tree line that you could only occasionally get eye shine with night vision.

Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6209609 03/04/16 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: Blue Tick
Are the pulsar units worth a look? I'd like to get the best I can for what I can afford, but the pockets don't go $5k+ or deeper on these.


Budget generally determines what most folks buy. Worth is subjective. I have been around this stuff for a while now. It tends to be a bit addictive and once you see something better you want it. Resources either allow you to go forward or you have accept and work with what you have. What has worth and value to one may not carry the same significance to another....and budget can play a part in a worth discussion.

Example: I had a guy out the other night that had a digital scope that I had given him. He was having a hard time adjusting it and asked me to take a look. It had been a while since I had looked into a digital scope. It was shockingly horrible. However, there was a time when I was thrilled to have that ability. It was the greatest thing I had experienced....well, that I considered affordable at that time....or maybe worth it. Anyway, I got it adjusted for him and handed it back. He was elated. This, for him, held value...it had worth. Because of my experiences going forward, I don't think I could hunt with it now....so it has little to no value to me.

Pulsar XD thermal scopes. Are they worth a look? Yes, when the budget is limited they are. Sellmark is the distributor here in the states and located in Mansfield, TX. It is owned by James and Dianna Sellers. They are good people and their company offers excellent customer service as compares to other companies in the business. The scopes carry a 3 year warranty and are generally reliable. They run 388 cores. Several cool features are offered such as Picture-in-Picture (PiP), the video out is always on and it is a good signal and you have the choice of manual, semi-auto and auto NUCing. The lowest cost is the XD 38. I would not consider it because the mag is 1.5 native optical making it hard to properly ID anything at a reasonable distance. I have the XD50A. It has a 2X native optical mag and is on the lower edge of what I see as minimal usable mag. Worth considering if budget is in the equation. If you can stretch another grand over your stated budget max, you could consider the XD75 which has a 3X native optical mag....but at that price you start to get into much better products with 640 cores.

So, if you limit your budget to 3 - 3.5K, the XD50A is worth considering. Beware however, once you peek into a 640 core product it will cause you to re-think worth and value. Nonetheless, it would be a reliable product backed by a good company and offer usable service.

At around 4K you can consider some scopes from Armasight and ATN with 3X native optical mag....and at 5K you get more mag. Most folks want to be under 4X so they have decent field of view on a running sounder. 3 - 3.5X seems ideal.

Sorry to get long winded. Worth and value are truly subjective. It is hard to tell another person how that is defined for them.

Last edited by dfwroadkill; 03/04/16 05:30 PM.
Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: dfwroadkill] #6209691 03/04/16 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: dfwroadkill
Originally Posted By: Blue Tick
Are the pulsar units worth a look? I'd like to get the best I can for what I can afford, but the pockets don't go $5k+ or deeper on these.


Budget generally determines what most folks buy. Worth is subjective. I have been around this stuff for a while now. It tends to be a bit addictive and once you see something better you want it. Resources either allow you to go forward or you have accept and work with what you have. What has worth and value to one may not carry the same significance to another....and budget can play a part in a worth discussion.

Example: I had a guy out the other night that had a digital scope that I had given him. He was having a hard time adjusting it and asked me to take a look. It had been a while since I had looked into a digital scope. It was shockingly horrible. However, there was a time when I was thrilled to have that ability. It was the greatest thing I had experienced....well, that I considered affordable at that time....or maybe worth it. Anyway, I got it adjusted for him and handed it back. He was elated. This, for him, held value...it had worth. Because of my experiences going forward, I don't think I could hunt with it now....so it has little to no value to me.

Pulsar XD thermal scopes. Are they worth a look? Yes, when the budget is limited they are. Sellmark is the distributor here in the states and located in Mansfield, TX. It is owned by James and Dianna Sellers. They are good people and their company offers excellent customer service as compares to other companies in the business. The scopes carry a 3 year warranty and are generally reliable. They run 388 cores. Several cool features are offered such as Picture-in-Picture (PiP), the video out is always on and it is a good signal and you have the choice of manual, semi-auto and auto NUCing. The lowest cost is the XD 38. I would not consider it because the mag is 1.5 native optical making it hard to properly ID anything at a reasonable distance. I have the XD50A. It has a 2X native optical mag and is on the lower edge of what I see as minimal usable mag. Worth considering if budget is in the equation. If you can stretch another grand over your stated budget max, you could consider the XD75 which has a 3X native optical mag....but at that price you start to get into much better products with 640 cores.

So, if you limit your budget to 3 - 3.5K, the XD50A is worth considering. Beware however, once you peek into a 640 core product it will cause you to re-think worth and value. Nonetheless, it would be a reliable product backed by a good company and offer usable service.

At around 4K you can consider some scopes from Armasight and ATN with 3X native optical mag....and at 5K you get more mag. Most folks want to be under 4X so they have decent field of view on a running sounder. 3 - 3.5X seems ideal.

Sorry to get long winded. Worth and value are truly subjective. It is hard to tell another person how that is defined for them.


What you are saying makes sense. $5k would be the max I would prefer to spend. Honestly would prefer to spend less if possible. For around that range, what options are available? What should I stay away from?



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If you have never had a thermal scope and you really want to stay down around the 3-3.5K range, go with the Pulsar XD50A. But don't ever look down a 640 core product. grin

Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: dfwroadkill] #6209788 03/04/16 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: dfwroadkill
If you have never had a thermal scope and you really want to stay down around the 3-3.5K range, go with the Pulsar XD50A. But don't ever look down a 640 core product. grin


Other than military stuff, I've never had a thermal. Whats the difference in the cores? What's the easiest way of sighting them in?



Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6209877 03/04/16 09:28 PM
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I sighted mine in use hand warmers @ 50 and them @ 200.

Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6209887 03/04/16 09:41 PM
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Much better resolution with 640 cores and when you digitally mag the first time you are still equal to the lesser cores, but with more mag. Try renting some from someone like www.ultimatenightvision.com to see what you like. Tyler will apply your rental cost to the purchase.

I also use handwarmers to sight in.

Last edited by dfwroadkill; 03/04/16 09:41 PM.
Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: dfwroadkill] #6211375 03/06/16 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted By: dfwroadkill
Much better resolution with 640 cores and when you digitally mag the first time you are still equal to the lesser cores, but with more mag. Try renting some from someone like www.ultimatenightvision.com to see what you like. Tyler will apply your rental cost to the purchase.

I also use handwarmers to sight in.


Which models offer the 640 cores? I need someone who offers loooooong lay away plans so I can get this by the CFO. lol



Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6211447 03/06/16 01:18 PM
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Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6211639 03/06/16 04:11 PM
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Does the Zeus 640 not have a 640 core?


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Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6211717 03/06/16 05:36 PM
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Yes, it does. I think DNS was listing the clip-ons with 640 cores.

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Pretty sure now I'm just going to do a stand alone unit and not worry with a clip on system.



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Good thinking...

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How is the Armasite Zeus 336 3x compared to the Pulsar xd 50a or any others in that range? That range is about the most I think I want to spend on this setup. Will these handle 308 recoil? I'm debating on selling my 6.8spc and replacing it with an AR 10.



Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick] #6212203 03/07/16 01:26 AM
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They will both handle .308 recoil. Hard call on which to pick. The list price on the Armasight is about $300 more than the Pulsar for the Armasight 30 Hz and $500 more for the Armasight 60 Hz. The Pulsar comes as a 50 Hz scope. Sellmark (Pulsar distributor) has a much better customer service reputation than Armasight. I think this makes two positives for the Pulsar, cheaper and better customer service. The difference in cores is negligible. The one thing that I see that would make a big difference to me is the Armasight offers 3X mag. It is a tough overall choice.

As to switching from 6.8 SPC to .308.... I have been steadily going the opposite way. I had 3 AR's in .308, I'm down to two and could go further. I now have two 6.8's. There is no doubt in my mind that the .308 just hammers hogs. It allows for a little more error in shot placement. I have killed a lot of pigs with that caliber. The 6.8 is clearly a step down in that area. I can see it. But something else comes into play for me. If all you do is sit blinds, the .308 can be fine. If you just shoot one hog most of the time, then I still like the .308. However, if you do a lot of spot and stalk, move around, up and down, in and out and you shoot at multiple hogs running in a sounder....give me the 6.8 all day long. I have had to switch back and forth lately taking people hunting. The .308's weight difference is hugely noticeable. It wears you out during the course of the night. Plus, the recoil and staying in the scope on a running sounder is much harder with the .308. I think accuracy suffers. After using both a lot, I will take the 6.8 every time given the choice.

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