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#6206964 - 03/02/16 11:39 AM Thermal Clip On Systems
Blue Tick Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/09/11
Posts: 124
Loc: Tomball, Tx
Been doing tons of research, reading, looking and comparing. I'm really thinking I would like to setup my 6.8 with a standard day scope system and them add a thermal clip on to that for the night varmint/pig hunting. Does anyone have any experience with these? Looking for the good and bad of them compared with the standard thermal systems.

Thanks!
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#6207030 - 03/02/16 12:30 PM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick]
Double Naught Spy Online   content
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 05/18/11
Posts: 4182
Loc: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
GOOD:
Don't have to change your day scope.
Zero is supposed to remain the same
Don't have to have a dedicated night rifle.
Thermal scope can be moved between rifles.
Thermal scope can be used as a spotter and then put on the rifle when game is spotted.

BAD:
Added weight of 2 scopes
Added weight on on forend making it much heavier
Possible and sometime problems with alignment, changing zero
Usually limited to 1x on the thermal scope. So your view is 1x, regardless of how much zoom you put on your day scope, you aren't getting a picture better than just a 1x scope. It is like holding a magnifying glass up to your cell phone to watch a movie and pretending it is a large screen TV.
There can be problems is mating/aligning the daylight and thermal scope, especially if the daylight scope rings are low or high.
Flexion of handguard where thermal is mounted can result in misalignment

----------------

The change of zero when repeatedly taking off and putting on the thermal is NOT supposed to happen, but I have seen it happen to 3 different guys and 2 brands of thermal. When it works, it works well and is very handy.
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#6208285 - 03/03/16 11:28 AM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick]
Double Naught Spy Online   content
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 05/18/11
Posts: 4182
Loc: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Example of zeroing problems with a clip-on. In this case, it is an Armasight, but the problem isn't brand specific.
http://www.lonestarboars.com/threads/poi-problem-w-apollo-pro-640-50mm-in-front-of-day-scope.5357/
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#6208309 - 03/03/16 11:43 AM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick]
dfwroadkill Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 3260
Loc: D/FW, TX
The main issue I have with any clip-on is that its allure would be the ability to install and de-install without the need to check zero each time. That hasn't been proven, to my knowledge, to be reliable in practice. I admit, I have a problem trusting it to begin with...

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#6208404 - 03/03/16 01:10 PM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick]
Blue Tick Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/09/11
Posts: 124
Loc: Tomball, Tx
What are some better solutions then? I just don't think I want a completely dedicated night rifle. I'd prefer to get this right the 1st go round.
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Texas European Mounts
(936)520-8841
lonestarskullworks@gmail.com

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#6208455 - 03/03/16 01:56 PM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick]
dfwroadkill Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 3260
Loc: D/FW, TX
IMO, tools are meant to do a particular job well. A scope is a tool. Digital scopes do a fair job at working night and day, but they certainly lack as compares to Gen III or thermal quality. It is to swim upstream if the requirement is to have one rifle to do all things well and include a day optic in the scenario. I use my dedicated thermal night and day with no issues. Heck, I prefer and love it because I see stuff even during the day that I would otherwise miss. Hunting 2 - 3 times a week, I can't tell you the last time I used a dedicated day optic. I have a good many excellent day optics collecting dust. If you can bring yourself to go dedicated thermal, you may find yourself in the same boat. These are just my thoughts and experience. I hope it helps you to decide.

Best of luck! up

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#6208463 - 03/03/16 02:03 PM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: dfwroadkill]
Blue Tick Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/09/11
Posts: 124
Loc: Tomball, Tx
Originally Posted By: dfwroadkill
IMO, tools are meant to do a particular job well. A scope is a tool. Digital scopes do a fair job at working night and day, but they certainly lack as compares to Gen III or thermal quality. It is to swim upstream if the requirement is to have one rifle to do all things well and include a day optic in the scenario. I use my dedicated thermal night and day with no issues. Heck, I prefer and love it because I see stuff even during the day that I would otherwise miss. Hunting 2 - 3 times a week, I can't tell you the last time I used a dedicated day optic. I have a good many excellent day optics collecting dust. If you can bring yourself to go dedicated thermal, you may find yourself in the same boat. These are just my thoughts and experience. I hope it helps you to decide.

Best of luck! up


Thanks. So you have no issues using your thermal in daylight? Never looked at it that way, but could be an end to the issue. I have been looking at the Armasight Zeus 3 336 60hz 42mm. Any thoughts on this unit?
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Texas European Mounts
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#6208499 - 03/03/16 02:24 PM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick]
Dien Online   content
Bird Dog

Registered: 08/16/12
Posts: 391
Loc: Grand Prairie
Clip ons are around the same price as a scope.

I went with the IR Defense Mkii, clip on and scope.

Daylight isn't an issue for a good thermal.

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#6208600 - 03/03/16 03:55 PM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick]
dfwroadkill Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 3260
Loc: D/FW, TX
Originally Posted By: Blue Tick
Thanks. So you have no issues using your thermal in daylight? Never looked at it that way, but could be an end to the issue. I have been looking at the Armasight Zeus 3 336 60hz 42mm. Any thoughts on this unit?


I personally have no issues at all using thermal during the day. I was deer hunting one mid-morning and was seeing nothing. All seemed quiet. Across the pasture from me was a wooded area that skirted the pasture I was hunting. I held my thermal monocular up and boom, there was a line of deer walking just inside the wood line. I lowered the thermal and could not see them with my eye. I grabbed my regular binocs and only got a glimpse from time to time. I would not have known they were there had I not been using thermal.

From what I have heard, folks are pleased with the Armasight product. I have only used them a few times. They use software to "white out" the areas around a target and gain more detail of the target. I have heard that the scope can lock onto a hotter target than the one you are interested in and reduce the visibility of your target. DNS should be back through at some point and can correct me or elaborate more. Basically, I think overall it is said to be a good product.

I own multiple brands. The IR Defense was mentioned above. I own the IR Patrol, the MKII and just received the new REAP IR. I love the IR Defense software and functionality, but it hasn't come without issues. My IR Patrol has been flawless. The MKII displays whatever the last menu you had up was upon recoil on my 6.8. The core on my brand new REAP IR died on the second shot from another 6.8 I own. That was yesterday. They will get them fixed, but it does demonstrate there can be issues with any of them. No issues with my ATN 640, 5X, but it is a beast and the software is showing its age. My Pulsar XD50 has not had problems and I like the PiP feature....not crazy about the sight picture, but I am spoiled to 640 cores..

There are tons of nuances with with different scopes. Features, some important, some not. Lots to consider.

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#6209079 - 03/03/16 09:43 PM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: dfwroadkill]
Blue Tick Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/09/11
Posts: 124
Loc: Tomball, Tx
Originally Posted By: dfwroadkill
Originally Posted By: Blue Tick
Thanks. So you have no issues using your thermal in daylight? Never looked at it that way, but could be an end to the issue. I have been looking at the Armasight Zeus 3 336 60hz 42mm. Any thoughts on this unit?


I personally have no issues at all using thermal during the day. I was deer hunting one mid-morning and was seeing nothing. All seemed quiet. Across the pasture from me was a wooded area that skirted the pasture I was hunting. I held my thermal monocular up and boom, there was a line of deer walking just inside the wood line. I lowered the thermal and could not see them with my eye. I grabbed my regular binocs and only got a glimpse from time to time. I would not have known they were there had I not been using thermal.

From what I have heard, folks are pleased with the Armasight product. I have only used them a few times. They use software to "white out" the areas around a target and gain more detail of the target. I have heard that the scope can lock onto a hotter target than the one you are interested in and reduce the visibility of your target. DNS should be back through at some point and can correct me or elaborate more. Basically, I think overall it is said to be a good product.

I own multiple brands. The IR Defense was mentioned above. I own the IR Patrol, the MKII and just received the new REAP IR. I love the IR Defense software and functionality, but it hasn't come without issues. My IR Patrol has been flawless. The MKII displays whatever the last menu you had up was upon recoil on my 6.8. The core on my brand new REAP IR died on the second shot from another 6.8 I own. That was yesterday. They will get them fixed, but it does demonstrate there can be issues with any of them. No issues with my ATN 640, 5X, but it is a beast and the software is showing its age. My Pulsar XD50 has not had problems and I like the PiP feature....not crazy about the sight picture, but I am spoiled to 640 cores..

There are tons of nuances with with different scopes. Features, some important, some not. Lots to consider.


I'm gathering there is lots to consider and although I used them extensively in the military I don't know much to anything about them, as far as what core to look at, 30hz or 60hz and so on. Are the pulsar units worth a look? I'd like to get the best I can for what I can afford, but the pockets don't go $5k+ or deeper on these.
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Texas European Mounts
(936)520-8841
lonestarskullworks@gmail.com

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#6209498 - 03/04/16 09:52 AM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick]
fr3db3ar Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 02/08/15
Posts: 283
Loc: Holland, MI
Pulsar definitely is worth the look.

I have the HD38A monocular for scanning and just got the XD50A scope for shooting. I can't wait to run the scope through it's courses. I've been using the monocular for several months and my experience is similar to DFW. I've seen lots of deer inside a tree line that you could only occasionally get eye shine with night vision.

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#6209609 - 03/04/16 11:27 AM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick]
dfwroadkill Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 3260
Loc: D/FW, TX
Originally Posted By: Blue Tick
Are the pulsar units worth a look? I'd like to get the best I can for what I can afford, but the pockets don't go $5k+ or deeper on these.


Budget generally determines what most folks buy. Worth is subjective. I have been around this stuff for a while now. It tends to be a bit addictive and once you see something better you want it. Resources either allow you to go forward or you have accept and work with what you have. What has worth and value to one may not carry the same significance to another....and budget can play a part in a worth discussion.

Example: I had a guy out the other night that had a digital scope that I had given him. He was having a hard time adjusting it and asked me to take a look. It had been a while since I had looked into a digital scope. It was shockingly horrible. However, there was a time when I was thrilled to have that ability. It was the greatest thing I had experienced....well, that I considered affordable at that time....or maybe worth it. Anyway, I got it adjusted for him and handed it back. He was elated. This, for him, held value...it had worth. Because of my experiences going forward, I don't think I could hunt with it now....so it has little to no value to me.

Pulsar XD thermal scopes. Are they worth a look? Yes, when the budget is limited they are. Sellmark is the distributor here in the states and located in Mansfield, TX. It is owned by James and Dianna Sellers. They are good people and their company offers excellent customer service as compares to other companies in the business. The scopes carry a 3 year warranty and are generally reliable. They run 388 cores. Several cool features are offered such as Picture-in-Picture (PiP), the video out is always on and it is a good signal and you have the choice of manual, semi-auto and auto NUCing. The lowest cost is the XD 38. I would not consider it because the mag is 1.5 native optical making it hard to properly ID anything at a reasonable distance. I have the XD50A. It has a 2X native optical mag and is on the lower edge of what I see as minimal usable mag. Worth considering if budget is in the equation. If you can stretch another grand over your stated budget max, you could consider the XD75 which has a 3X native optical mag....but at that price you start to get into much better products with 640 cores.

So, if you limit your budget to 3 - 3.5K, the XD50A is worth considering. Beware however, once you peek into a 640 core product it will cause you to re-think worth and value. Nonetheless, it would be a reliable product backed by a good company and offer usable service.

At around 4K you can consider some scopes from Armasight and ATN with 3X native optical mag....and at 5K you get more mag. Most folks want to be under 4X so they have decent field of view on a running sounder. 3 - 3.5X seems ideal.

Sorry to get long winded. Worth and value are truly subjective. It is hard to tell another person how that is defined for them.


Edited by dfwroadkill (03/04/16 11:30 AM)

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#6209691 - 03/04/16 12:35 PM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: dfwroadkill]
Blue Tick Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/09/11
Posts: 124
Loc: Tomball, Tx
Originally Posted By: dfwroadkill
Originally Posted By: Blue Tick
Are the pulsar units worth a look? I'd like to get the best I can for what I can afford, but the pockets don't go $5k+ or deeper on these.


Budget generally determines what most folks buy. Worth is subjective. I have been around this stuff for a while now. It tends to be a bit addictive and once you see something better you want it. Resources either allow you to go forward or you have accept and work with what you have. What has worth and value to one may not carry the same significance to another....and budget can play a part in a worth discussion.

Example: I had a guy out the other night that had a digital scope that I had given him. He was having a hard time adjusting it and asked me to take a look. It had been a while since I had looked into a digital scope. It was shockingly horrible. However, there was a time when I was thrilled to have that ability. It was the greatest thing I had experienced....well, that I considered affordable at that time....or maybe worth it. Anyway, I got it adjusted for him and handed it back. He was elated. This, for him, held value...it had worth. Because of my experiences going forward, I don't think I could hunt with it now....so it has little to no value to me.

Pulsar XD thermal scopes. Are they worth a look? Yes, when the budget is limited they are. Sellmark is the distributor here in the states and located in Mansfield, TX. It is owned by James and Dianna Sellers. They are good people and their company offers excellent customer service as compares to other companies in the business. The scopes carry a 3 year warranty and are generally reliable. They run 388 cores. Several cool features are offered such as Picture-in-Picture (PiP), the video out is always on and it is a good signal and you have the choice of manual, semi-auto and auto NUCing. The lowest cost is the XD 38. I would not consider it because the mag is 1.5 native optical making it hard to properly ID anything at a reasonable distance. I have the XD50A. It has a 2X native optical mag and is on the lower edge of what I see as minimal usable mag. Worth considering if budget is in the equation. If you can stretch another grand over your stated budget max, you could consider the XD75 which has a 3X native optical mag....but at that price you start to get into much better products with 640 cores.

So, if you limit your budget to 3 - 3.5K, the XD50A is worth considering. Beware however, once you peek into a 640 core product it will cause you to re-think worth and value. Nonetheless, it would be a reliable product backed by a good company and offer usable service.

At around 4K you can consider some scopes from Armasight and ATN with 3X native optical mag....and at 5K you get more mag. Most folks want to be under 4X so they have decent field of view on a running sounder. 3 - 3.5X seems ideal.

Sorry to get long winded. Worth and value are truly subjective. It is hard to tell another person how that is defined for them.


What you are saying makes sense. $5k would be the max I would prefer to spend. Honestly would prefer to spend less if possible. For around that range, what options are available? What should I stay away from?
_________________________
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Texas European Mounts
(936)520-8841
lonestarskullworks@gmail.com

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#6209712 - 03/04/16 12:47 PM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: Blue Tick]
dfwroadkill Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 3260
Loc: D/FW, TX
If you have never had a thermal scope and you really want to stay down around the 3-3.5K range, go with the Pulsar XD50A. But don't ever look down a 640 core product. grin

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#6209788 - 03/04/16 01:48 PM Re: Thermal Clip On Systems [Re: dfwroadkill]
Blue Tick Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/09/11
Posts: 124
Loc: Tomball, Tx
Originally Posted By: dfwroadkill
If you have never had a thermal scope and you really want to stay down around the 3-3.5K range, go with the Pulsar XD50A. But don't ever look down a 640 core product. grin


Other than military stuff, I've never had a thermal. Whats the difference in the cores? What's the easiest way of sighting them in?
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