There is a thread going on at FB about a guy who booked a hunt for a black hawaiian based on it's size. The ad said it would be 38 to 41 inches. Then he was later told that if he took it with a pistol, it would be the new world record. From what I can understand, the outfitter doing the booking wasn't the guide. The guide told the hunter to shoot the one on the right, it was the biggest one. On the ground, it turned out to be 34.5 inches. Nothing close to what he had been sold. The outfitter is going to make it right and has offered a full refund. I applaud the outfitter for doing this since I feel this is the right thing to do.

What bothers me, and why I bring this up is all the comments from others who are attacking the hunter for pulling the trigger. If a guide tells you which animal to shoot, and you book a hunt for what might be a new world record, and given a size range of what to expect, shouldn't you expect it to be at least in the size range of the advertisement?

Why all the anger at the hunter who didn't get what he paid for? How many people can accurately estimate the size of a live sheep when they don't see them every day?

I don't have anything in the record book, but I like to use it for a base to know what a mature animal is. Scoring high in the book is nice, but that's just a bonus. I want what I take to be a mature, full grown, quality animal, so when I have a guide I want him to be able to tell me how big it is before I shoot it. A good example is that I wanted a 50 inch kudu when I went to Namibia. Is saw dozens of them while I was there, but only shot the one my guide told me was over 50 inches. He was 52 inches. If he had told me to shoot one and it was 48 inches, I would be upset.

I don't understand any of it. The people talking down to the hunter. The hunt for a specific size of animal. Guides guaranteeing world records. Facebook's existance.

There's probably a shred of sense in it, somewhere, but I don't see it.

Judging horn size on the hoof is a tough job, and outfitters that sell hunts based on inches of horn better be good at it. The ram outfitter that missed by 4 inches did the exact right thing.

BTW.. I had the exact same goal on my Kudu hunt a few years back, with that exact same result. Nice to find another member of the 50 club I find that PH's in Africa are dang good at judging animals on the hoof. If we required guides in the US to undergo the same level of training and apprenticeship they do, hunting in the US would be much the better for it.

I wouldn't talk down to the hunter and I applaud the outfitter for making it right. However, it's always a good idea to do your homework and have at least some idea of the animal you're hunting. What if you and the guide and separated by 10-15' and he tells you to shoot, but in the brush it turns out you're looking at different animals and you're about to shoot the wrong one?

What I have done on Ibex that I have told a certain size is if there is a discussion as to if it is really what i said they were. Let us say I said the horns were 30 inches. If the horns were over 30 you owe me $100 per inch. If they are less than 30" I owe you $100 per inch. I have never had to pay. I tried face book for a while. What I have seen it is not all it is cracked up to be. That is why I quit it.

Above our "pay grade" I guess Sneaky

I reckon so.

I need to see this Kudu you speak of

He may have got that one after I saw his collection, the man has a crap-load of trophies for sure..Id like to see a photo as well, even though I have not shot an exotic anything.

Sounds like the outfitter did the right thing if he was advertising it as a new world record. I expect that the hunter paid a premium to shoot a record ram. The outfitter was way off on size and he is making it right. Good for him.

From your post, it doesn't sound like the hunter did anything wrong. I wouldn't expect a full refund. However, if he paid for the record book, I don't think it is out of line to accept a partial refund or credit. This should really be a story of an outfitter that made a standup call. There aren't many that would offer a full refund.

I'm with Sneaky.

I'm 32 and I've never had Facebook because of reasons like that, too many yahoos and idiots. I don't understand the desire people have to know everything about everybody, kinda weird to me.

Just to update. The hunt was posted for a low price, but that it had to happen right away. I think it was in the $1,800 range for a 38 to 42 inch ram. Then the hunter posted the text between the outfitter and himself that the ram might be the new world record if taken with a pistol, but he couldn't guarantee the size of the ram for sure. The hunter booked the hunt after hearing that and started practicing with his pistol.

The guide was not the outfitter. No idea what the guide new or didn't know about the size the ram was supposed to be. He got the hunter on two big rams and told him to take the one he felt was the biggest. It was 34.5 inches. When they got back with it to where the outfitter was, he basically blew him off saying thats hunting and that he never guaranteed the size of the ram.

From what I understand, the hunter was not able to get any sort of resolution done through the outfitter, so he posted it on facebook. Pictures of the ram, the deal for the ram and their text messages. This is when the replies started coming in attacking the hunter. Then they turned into an [censored] kissing to the outfitter like I have never seen before.

This entire thread has now been removed, but the [censored] kissers have gone into overdrive expressing their love and devotion to the outfitter. It's become embarrassing to see grown men praise and worship an outfitter that some of them have never even met!!! I don't get it.

How many years was a few

That's an awesome Kudu

Those areas highlighted in red would have been red flags to me on this whole situation. I can find fault on both sides with just those highlighted areas and not knowing all the true details. Having one side of how it was "supposed" to have happened is not a good. Look back at the thread on here about the the son and the GW. Told and posted one way then when different recap of how the event went down, it shed a whole different light on the subject.
I don't waste anytime on facebook.

I forgot to mention that the outfitter offered a full refund in his comments on FB and the hunter was talking to him about how to make it right. I have no issue with the outfitter or the hunter. To me, that was eventually worked out and it's between them.

I'm struggling with those hunters who feel that the hunter is at fault for shooting the animal his guide told him to shoot when he booked a hunt for the potential new world record with a pistol and was clearly supposed to be in the 38 to 42 inch range.

Why would fellow hunters get angry and call the hunter names when he isn't happy with shooting an animal that isn't even close to what he paid for? In the world of trophy hunting, and outfitters selling hunts based on trophy quality, being off by 4 1/2 inches isn't even close to what was offered.

Nice Kudu Eddie, I must have seen that on your wall.

Hunter seems to always be the one that takes the heat, remember Cecil, and the girl that shot 2 bears? Maybe it has to do with who actually pulled the trigger as for resposibility for most folks IDK?

I was guiding a hunter on a really large typical whitetail buck. The hunter had never taken a buck that big and was excited to get the chance to hunt a buck that size. He expected it to be a one hunt and done hunt, 4 days later he left to go back to work for few days and get more clothes to return. Two more days of hunting the big buck and two other younger bucks are walking up a road towards the blind. He sees the buck and I can tell the hunter is getting excited by his breathing rate. The large buck(the other two bucks were a 1 yr old and nice 2 yr old with one kicker) walked off the road and starts to whip a bush with his antlers. He shreds some limbs off of it and walks back into the road towards us and has a 4-5' branch across his rack. I am videoing all this while talking to calm the hunter down. He asked me "does the big buck have a kicker? I said, yes and a 4' branch hanging in his rack". The bucks is walking directly towards us with other 2 younger bucks ahead of him eating corn in the road. The 2yr old is broadside in the road. I told the hunter when the buck with branch in his rack gives him a good broadside shot, take it when you are comfortable. I heard the safety go off and the buck was still facing us but had stopped. He said are you ready? I said yes, let's wait for him to tur.....boom..rifle goes off(I am thinking he shot him facing us in the brisket???) and big buck turns to haul azz off. At the same time in my peripheral vision(I am looking thru the viewfinder on the camera) I see the 2 yr old buck drop in his tracks. The hunter looks at me and is smiling from ear to ear and said, "I got him!" I did not know what to say at first, then said you hit the wrong buck. He said "no way, I dropped him in his tracks". I then told him that he had shot the wrong buck. He looked at me and laughed and said "you are joking". The look on my face must have been enough caused he turned white in the face. He knew he had shot the wrong buck. He immediately got out of the blind and walked down to the dead buck. I replayed the whole video for him to see and hear what had happened. He was locked on the wrong buck the whole time. A buck that was 60" smaller than the mature buck. He said he remembered me saying "he is the buck with the 4' tree branch in his rack" but still shot the wrong buck.
Things happen on hunts that told or recapped not the way they actually happened. I had this all on the video with audio. Communication between hunters and guides when multiple animals are in the same area is very critical. Knowing your hunters experience is just as critical as knowing your guides experience.
I had a similar experience as the one in the OP on my first axis hunt. A buck was spotted about 100 yards out. I could not see his antlers but could see his body from where I was sitting. The guide said he was a good buck, I said I can not see him well. He said "He is over 30", I guarantee it." I asked again and he said "I guarantee he is". I could see good brows so I shot and dropped him in his tracks. He was only 28", guide apologized. It was just a much his fault for guaranteeing the size as it was mine for shooting a buck I could not see the size of. I did not ask for the discount, he gave it though.

I'm not supporting what they did or said, but the explanation for why there might be some conflicting opinions is simple: some don't like the idea of hunting being reduced to animals being "bought" and "sold" based on size. In other words, turning it into something that more resembles a transaction to buy a certain guaranteed animal than a hunting experience.

The title of your OP alone would be a turnoff for many.

I have hunted a variety of animals all over North America I had never hunted before. I always educate myself on what a good animal looks like before I make the trip. Nowadays, there are lots of resources to do so with the internet, videos, etc.

I have never had a guide tell me anything but what he thinks about the size of the animals - some are very good and get fairly specific, but they always emphasize that it is an estimate only. Since I am not a "gotta-have-a-minimum-size" type of guy this approach is fine with me. I have never been on a guided hunt where it was possible to focus exclusively on one particular animal, so I can't relate to that.

Communication on shooting the right animal requires both guide and hunter to be on the exact same page. Both my rams were with other rams. Even though I was certain I was looking at the right animal, before I squeezed the trigger each guide exactly described exactly where the ram was standing/positioned related to some landmark and I repeated it back to him before I shot.

You don't always have that luxury but when you do you I always take advantage of it. Shooting the wrong animal when there is more than one is probably the second most common mistake many make at the shot (behind missing/wounding an animal). It is easier to do than many might think with all the adrenaline pumping.

This hunter was a lifelong whitetail hunter. He had never had a buck that size in his sights before. He was relying on the ranch/guide to find him a big deer and they were relying on him to make the shot. There was no guarantee on either end. (That is why that ranch videoed every hunt so there was no question on either end after the shot).
I am like you when on a hunt or guiding a hunter, communication about what animal is the correct one to shoot is the most important thing. I make sure they know and I know what animal is in their sights. My final words to any hunters when they are ready to take the shot, is "if you like the buck, shoot him". With the hunter above, he knew that buck was big(never told a score only that he was mature and he had seen a pic of him). I never guarantee size and like you, hate menu pricing on animals by size. I prefer one price for a hunt. Tell the hunter that before time and then "shoot him if you like him". I will not hunt when there is a guarantee. I prefer a hunt where there is a daily guide/lodging fee then a kill fee. No pressure to shoot what you do not like. I have hunted where they charge one price for the hunt and where they do the per day/hunt amount then kill fee. If I am going hunting in a new area, I try to familiarize myself with pictures of animals for age, body size and antler quality. We all have the animal we want pictured in our minds before the hunt starts but when the animal suddenly is in our sites we have to be the one saying yes or no, no matter what the guide is telling you to do. Even if he is not that animal we have pictured in our minds. I was not one of those guides who got mad when a hunter passed on a buck. I actually liked that a hunter could wait on what they really liked and were okay with going home emptied handed. I have eaten a tag sandwich quite a bit the last few years myself.