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Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
#6146023
01/21/16 04:11 AM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,218
shooterwalter
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I am in discussion with a dog trainer regarding force fetch training.
Is it needed? When? Is it hard on dogs? Is it part of the gun dog SOP.
www.poetryshootingclub.comGun Dog Training, Flighty Quail Guided/Unguided Quail Hunting Group Events/Parties 700 Yard Range CLOSE TO DALLAS Take a youth shooting 214-728-2755 By appointment always and you shoot in private.
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Comments regarding force fetch training pros and cons
#6146025
01/21/16 04:15 AM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,218
shooterwalter
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Please share thoughts about force fetch training?
Thanking you in advance for sharing.
www.poetryshootingclub.comGun Dog Training, Flighty Quail Guided/Unguided Quail Hunting Group Events/Parties 700 Yard Range CLOSE TO DALLAS Take a youth shooting 214-728-2755 By appointment always and you shoot in private.
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Re: Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
[Re: shooterwalter]
#6146029
01/21/16 04:19 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,881
TXPride
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Yes, it is part of standard gun dog SOP
Give us a little more info.
It really depends on the owner if it's "needed" our not.
What are your goals for your dog? Are you training the dog yourself? Are you going to run hunt tests? Are you ok with your dog dropping birds/cripples if it gets distracted or excited?
Once I started force fetching my dogs, I realized I'll always do it. There are ways to do it that aren't hard on a dog and use no negative reinforcement, and there are ways that I would consider close to cruel.
Last edited by TXPride; 01/21/16 04:23 AM.
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Re: Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
[Re: shooterwalter]
#6146089
01/21/16 06:44 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 966
duckboogieman
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The key will be identifying the right person for the job.
Regarding timing. Most will suggest at or around 6mo of age, once the pup has lost his baby teeth so that there are no issues with the mouth being tender.
IMO it's far more a mental process then it is physical. It's laying the foundation from which everything else will be built upon by establishing the mind set that when I say "inset command" that I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.... And there is a HUGE difference. Clearly establishing this relationship early on will only make life easier for both dog and owner. Luckily these dogs live to please and are desperate to know their place so that they can excel with confidence. It's our job to cleary establish that place and maintain those parameters.
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Re: Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
[Re: duckboogieman]
#6146099
01/21/16 07:33 AM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 333
claypool
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The key will be identifying the right person for the job.
Regarding timing. Most will suggest at or around 6mo of age, once the pup has lost his baby teeth so that there are no issues with the mouth being tender.
IMO it's far more a mental process then it is physical. It's laying the foundation from which everything else will be built upon by establishing the mind set that when I say "inset command" that I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.... And there is a HUGE difference. Clearly establishing this relationship early on will only make life easier for both dog and owner. Luckily these dogs live to please and are desperate to know their place so that they can excel with confidence. It's our job to cleary establish that place and maintain those parameters. this, this,this THIS
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Re: Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
[Re: shooterwalter]
#6146137
01/21/16 12:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,788
wal1809
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I wish we could rename the proceedure and call it force foundation. I think It is wrong to declare a dogs needs this or doesn't need it. All dogs need a foundation do build on. Force fetch is not just making the dog hold a bird and deliver a bird to hand. Let's call that 10 % of what FF does for a dog. The new way for trainers now is deciding if the dog needs it or not. I am not a fan at all about skipping this proceedure. It allows the trainer to teach the dog they will follow commands or a correction will be swift. It also teaches them how to work through a correction without having a meltdown. There are far better trainers out there than Me that have decided to evaluate the dog through FF. IMHO you're cheating yourself and the dog by skipping this very, extremely valuable training method.
Now with that being said. Save your money and take your dog to the best trainer you can afford. If he\she does not come highly recomended, DONT USE THEM. If they don't have a proven record don't use them. If strangers to you don't know them, you got it, don't use them. This is not at all a time to save money. Dump what you got into the base training and you will be a LOT better off in the end. So post them name of who you want to use and listen to people that have used them. There are some shady characters out there that hung up a sign because there dog hit a seasoned UKC title. That doesn't make them a trainer. Did I mention find a reputable trainer?
Duckboogieman gets it. The Force fetch sucks. I want to change the industry name of Force Fetch to Force Foundation!!
Last edited by wal1809; 01/21/16 12:09 PM.
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Re: Comments regarding force fetch training pros and cons
[Re: shooterwalter]
#6146217
01/21/16 01:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 91,416
bill oxner
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I don't like to do it. It's a last resort for me.
Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill
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Re: Comments regarding force fetch training pros and cons
[Re: shooterwalter]
#6146412
01/21/16 03:37 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,068
NorthTXbirdhunter
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In my opinion, there is a gray area between force fetching and a dog that you can call in and hunt downed or dead birds in the field while hunting. I would rather have the dead bird finder especially with the cover we all have this year. Force fetching has its' place in field trials and competitions, but I have only seen a very few times that it would apply 100% in the field. Training a dog to come in and hunt dead birds and stay there until it is found or you call them off is its' own art form and one that would be my preference.
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Re: Comments regarding force fetch training pros and cons
[Re: NorthTXbirdhunter]
#6146422
01/21/16 03:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 91,416
bill oxner
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In my opinion, there is a gray area between force fetching and a dog that you can call in and hunt downed or dead birds in the field while hunting. I would rather have the dead bird finder especially with the cover we all have this year. Force fetching has its' place in field trials and competitions, but I have only seen a very few times that it would apply 100% in the field. Training a dog to come in and hunt dead birds and stay there until it is found or you call them off is its' own art form and one that would be my preference. Bingo. Muffin was the easiest one I've ever done. She's a little reluctant on the release.
Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill
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Re: Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
[Re: duckboogieman]
#6146462
01/21/16 03:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 532
Esh and Hattie
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The key will be identifying the right person for the job.
Regarding timing. Most will suggest at or around 6mo of age, once the pup has lost his baby teeth so that there are no issues with the mouth being tender.
IMO it's far more a mental process then it is physical. It's laying the foundation from which everything else will be built upon by establishing the mind set that when I say "inset command" that I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.... And there is a HUGE difference. Clearly establishing this relationship early on will only make life easier for both dog and owner. Luckily these dogs live to please and are desperate to know their place so that they can excel with confidence. It's our job to cleary establish that place and maintain those parameters. I think I'm going to save this so I can copy and paste it as a form answer
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Re: Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
[Re: Esh and Hattie]
#6146592
01/21/16 05:12 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,788
wal1809
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The key will be identifying the right person for the job.
Regarding timing. Most will suggest at or around 6mo of age, once the pup has lost his baby teeth so that there are no issues with the mouth being tender.
IMO it's far more a mental process then it is physical. It's laying the foundation from which everything else will be built upon by establishing the mind set that when I say "inset command" that I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.... And there is a HUGE difference. Clearly establishing this relationship early on will only make life easier for both dog and owner. Luckily these dogs live to please and are desperate to know their place so that they can excel with confidence. It's our job to cleary establish that place and maintain those parameters. I think I'm going to save this so I can copy and paste it as a form answer +1 on that opinion!
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Re: Comments regarding force fetch training pros and cons
[Re: NorthTXbirdhunter]
#6146847
01/21/16 07:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,657
colt45-90
Texas colt45
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Texas colt45
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In my opinion, there is a gray area between force fetching and a dog that you can call in and hunt downed or dead birds in the field while hunting. I would rather have the dead bird finder especially with the cover we all have this year. Force fetching has its' place in field trials and competitions, but I have only seen a very few times that it would apply 100% in the field. Training a dog to come in and hunt dead birds and stay there until it is found or you call them off is its' own art form and one that would be my preference. this, never liked force
hold on Newt, we got a runaway
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Re: Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
[Re: shooterwalter]
#6146908
01/21/16 07:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,250
Judd
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In my opinion it is hard on the dog and even harder on the person doing it (if they aren't a full time trainer used to doing it all the time). It is teaching the dog how to deal with pressure and if you aren't applying pressure then you aren't "force foundationing" (see WAL it just doesn't sound as good as fetching as a verb ). It depends on your wants/needs for your dog. I did mine, I don't know that I would do another one but I can tell you I wouldn't consider owning a retreiver that was not force foundationed (see it doesn't work as well here either ). The foundation does make more sense because it is the foundation for all training past that stage...you do foundation to pile which in turn ends up being your casting training. Conclusion in this post - I just don't like the word foundation over fetch.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
[Re: shooterwalter]
#6147517
01/22/16 12:22 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 298
Teamjefe
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
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Not to hijack this thread but I have a pup that is going through force fetch right now at Best Retrievers. The trainer said that he is a tough dog so its taken a little longer to force fetch but that he is almost through. I really didn't understand force fetch till recently.
Any review on Best Retrievers?
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Re: Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
[Re: Teamjefe]
#6147669
01/22/16 01:30 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 966
duckboogieman
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Any review on Best Retrievers? Rody has built one of the most successful kennels in the state. It didn't happen by accident. Your pup is in exceptionally qualified hands.
HRCH Miss Ivy's Frequent Flying Dutchman MH (Dutch)
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Re: Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
[Re: wal1809]
#6148017
01/22/16 03:52 AM
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Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 332
Sweese
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Joined: Jul 2015
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I want to change the industry name of Force Fetch to Force Foundation!! I like "conditioned retrieve"
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Re: Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
[Re: shooterwalter]
#6148045
01/22/16 04:14 AM
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Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 332
Sweese
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
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Posts: 332 |
I am in discussion with a dog trainer regarding force fetch training.
Is it needed? When? Is it hard on dogs? Is it part of the gun dog SOP.
1. No - it is not needed.(see 4. below) 2. Usually after the adult teeth are in - but it can be done earlier. 3. No, if done right it is not any harder on dogs than "sit", "stay" , "whoa" , "heel", or "here". 4 It is SOP for a gun dog that you want to consistently retrieve and deliver to hand (no dropping), and as previously mentioned, it is required for a finished gun dog (pointer or flusher) in tests or trials.
Last edited by Sweese; 01/22/16 04:15 AM.
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Re: Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
[Re: duckboogieman]
#6148180
01/22/16 11:04 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,788
wal1809
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Any review on Best Retrievers? Rody has built one of the most successful kennels in the state. It didn't happen by accident. Your pup is in exceptionally qualified hands. I know the Best family and their operation very well. You can rest easy, you took your dog to a fantastic trainer.
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Re: Opininons regarding Force Fetch training
[Re: Sweese]
#6148184
01/22/16 11:13 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,788
wal1809
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I want to change the industry name of Force Fetch to Force Foundation!! I like "conditioned retrieve" I would go with that. Anything other than force fetch. It lends people to focus on fetching. It has spook little to do with the actual fetching. If your dog doesn't know how to take a correction and work through a problem, what do you have? A dog with no foundation. Run a dog that can't take a correction on a running W and see what happens about pile 2 maybe pile 3 or 4. It will have a complete melt down and confusion. It isn't fair to the dog.
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