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#6132859 - 01/12/16 06:06 PM 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings
ZachTisdale Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 06/06/12
Posts: 111
Before I am crucified, let me say that I am all for the 2nd Amendment and do not really believe that any type of gun control offers a complete solution to the issues we are facing today.

However, I am writing a research paper for college and wanted to get some input from you guys about this.

What, if any, parts of the second amendment would you be willing to give up in the quest for safety sake?

What are your thoughts on universal background checks for ALL gun sales, both private party and from gun stores? Why do honest citizens worry about background checks causing their guns to be registered? If you have completely honest intentions, why should that matter?

I know there is the argument of "if you outlaw guns, only criminals will have them..." That is what leads me to believe that there is no solution that would completely end gun violence, without infringing on the rights of law-abiding citizens.

Playing the other side of the argument, how can we begin to bridge the gap between gun-owners and gun haters?

Thanks ahead of time guys, ya'll are a fountain of knowledge for me.

And if this needs to be moved, please do so.

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#6132879 - 01/12/16 06:20 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: ZachTisdale]
MarkieMark Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 12/24/15
Posts: 65
Spend a week rounding up all the firearms from the criminals, gang bangers and drug lords and you will definitely reduce crime.

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#6132880 - 01/12/16 06:20 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: ZachTisdale]
KRoyal Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 13622
Loc: Sherman/North of Dallas
Absolutely no part.

2996 souls parished on 9/11 due to religious extremism. Yet you don't hear people calling for the freedom of religion to be given up for safety.


”He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.” - Ben Franklin
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#6132886 - 01/12/16 06:23 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: ZachTisdale]
texasdude28 Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 2791
Loc: Clairette
Zach, first question for you- how much of your First Amendment rights are you willing to give up? Freedom of religion to make atheists and muslims happy? Speech so that everyone is politically correct? Why would anyone willingly give up any freedoms? 4 of 9 justices on the SCOTUS are ready to change the 2nd Amendment as we know it, one more tips the balance. When you have a speaker of the house who is on the record as saying if she had the votes she would take every gun she could, when Hillary supports what Australia did in gun confiscation then people get nervous. How do you get criminals to follow the law? How do you get muslims to quit killing christians? You might try inviting the gun haters to come shoot with you, but you really can't change unreasonable, emotional thinking. Good luck with the paper.

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#6132899 - 01/12/16 06:33 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: ZachTisdale]
Lab Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 03/19/13
Posts: 958
Loc: Collinsville, TX
Well said my friend ^^
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#6132914 - 01/12/16 06:41 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: ZachTisdale]
leswad Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 804
Loc: Miserableplex
I won't give an inch! As far as background checks.... Why should I have to ask my government if I can give a gun to my son or daughter? And charge me for it too!?!?

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#6132924 - 01/12/16 06:45 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: ZachTisdale]
syncerus Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 1989
Loc: Dallas, TX
How many violent criminals are you willing to hang to keep the citizens of this country safe?
Do you really believe that someone should wait 20 years on death row after being lawfully convicted of a capital offense?
Did you know that 2/3 of the people killed in America by "gun violence" are suicides and not murders?
Did you know that statistics from Japan and countries behind the Iron Curtain prove conclusively that access to firearms has **NO** bearing on suicide rates, only on the method of suicide?
Did you know that a map of violent crime in America overlaid with a map of gun control restrictions is almost a perfect match? That is, low gun control areas have little or no violent crime and high gun control areas have massive amounts of violent crime.
The is **no** correlation between geographic firearms availability and firearms crime in America.

How much of your first amendment rights are you willing to give up for public safety?
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#6132937 - 01/12/16 06:49 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: ZachTisdale]
FiremanJG Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Giving up any part of the second amendment will provide no law abiding citizen with any more safety. It will, however make a safer atmosphere for armed robbery, rapists, home invaders, car jackers, and murderers.

Background checks are targeting criminals in hopes of preventing their ability to purchase. The trouble is criminals do not purchase anywhere that is going to perform a background check. Therefore all it has accomplished is making life more difficult for John Q. Citizen.

Bridging the gap between gun owners and gun haters means we have to get the gun haters to stop watching and listening to the lies being told to them by the liberals from the POTUS down. And that is their strategy, tell lies that play on emotion and mascarade those lies as facts. Getting the gun hater to pause for ten minutes to view a statistical chart, with data from the U.S. and other countries is more difficult than any sane person would expect. State by state comparison is available annually, provided by the FBI. And every year the states that have the highest gun crimes are the ones with the most stringent laws. Some states produce more firearm deaths annually than does battle fields in Afghanistan. But the gun hater/ liberal choose to ignore hard numbers which appears to be insanity. Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different outcome is, an example of insanity.

Changing the tempo, and content, of the media is the first hurdle to education. Unfortunately it is not against the law to boldly lie on the mass available media outlets.





I did not go to college, best wishes on your paper.
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#6132944 - 01/12/16 06:52 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: leswad]
ZachTisdale Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 06/06/12
Posts: 111
Originally Posted By: leswad
I won't give an inch! As far as background checks.... Why should I have to ask my government if I can give a gun to my son or daughter? And charge me for it too!?!?


You have to agree though, that without some form of check, violent criminals could purchase firearms very easily... As it is now, they already can but they do have to look a little harder. If there was NO background check, such as through a private treaty sale, then the seller could be held responsible to some degree...

I wouldn't say I straddle the fence on this, I disagree with most forms of gun control simply because they are ineffective. However, it does make me wonder just who is purchasing firearms at the local gun show.. I have seen some folks I wouldn't trust with a slingshot carrying 1911's that were locked and loaded.

I guess my thought is that I have no ill-intention when I purchase a firearm, so a 10 minute background check, that I have never paid for to my knowledge, doesn't bother me

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#6132958 - 01/12/16 06:56 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: FiremanJG]
ZachTisdale Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 06/06/12
Posts: 111
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Giving up any part of the second amendment will provide no law abiding citizen with any more safety. It will, however make a safer atmosphere for armed robbery, rapists, home invaders, car jackers, and murderers.

Background checks are targeting criminals in hopes of preventing their ability to purchase. The trouble is criminals do not purchase anywhere that is going to perform a background check. Therefore all it has accomplished is making life more difficult for John Q. Citizen.

Bridging the gap between gun owners and gun haters means we have to get the gun haters to stop watching and listening to the lies being told to them by the liberals from the POTUS down. And that is their strategy, tell lies that play on emotion and mascarade those lies as facts. Getting the gun hater to pause for ten minutes to view a statistical chart, with data from the U.S. and other countries is more difficult than any sane person would expect. State by state comparison is available annually, provided by the FBI. And every year the states that have the highest gun crimes are the ones with the most stringent laws. Some states produce more firearm deaths annually than does battle fields in Afghanistan. But the gun hater/ liberal choose to ignore hard numbers which appears to be insanity. Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different outcome is, an example of insanity.

Changing the tempo, and content, of the media is the first hurdle to education. Unfortunately it is not against the law to boldly lie on the mass available media outlets.





I did not go to college, best wishes on your paper.


I agree with you almost 100%. I agree that gun control, by and large, in ineffective and giving up our rights would definitely create a more profitable environment for offenders.

Criminals do not buy guns from people who are doing background checks, such as most gun shows and private sales. That is where I would agree with background checks... If we can take more routes away from criminals to get their hands on firearms, without infringing on law-abiding citizens, I am all for it. As it stands, I don't see background checks as infringing. Limiting what types of firearms we can have or what type of magazine/ what capacity we can have is infringing.

At the end of the day, a criminal is going to do whatever they can to commit their crimes. And they don't need a gun to kill.


Edited by ZachTisdale (01/12/16 06:58 PM)

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#6132979 - 01/12/16 07:04 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: ZachTisdale]
scalebuster Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 11/25/10
Posts: 1892
I played football with a thug black kid that could get you any firearm you wanted for cheap and had one hell of an inventory at the house where he "stays" at.

People like this is where criminals get their weapons. Not from gun shows or Hunting forum internet sights.

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#6132997 - 01/12/16 07:09 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: ZachTisdale]
syncerus Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 1989
Loc: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted By: ZachTisdale

You have to agree though, that without some form of check, violent criminals could purchase firearms very easily... As it is now, they already can but they do have to look a little harder. If there was NO background check, such as through a private treaty sale, then the seller could be held responsible to some degree...


Before the Gun Control Act of 1968 people could buy firearms via mail without restriction.

1967 was the last complete year before the GCA 1968.
US Population in 1967: 197,457,000
US Murder in 1967: 12,240

In 1981 after 13 years of the Gun Control Act of 1968.
US Population in 1981: 229,146,000
US Murder in 1981: 22,520

According to these numbers, the murder rate **without any gun control** was 1 murder for every 16132 people.
The murder rate with gun control was 1 murder for every 10175 people.

That's an increase of about 63%.

In short, no, I don't have to agree with you. You're wrong.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm


Edited by syncerus (01/12/16 07:10 PM)
Edit Reason: added link to data source
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#6133012 - 01/12/16 07:14 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: ZachTisdale]
RiverRider Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 6199
Loc: Wise Co.
The way the whole thing should be approached is a registration of people who are disqualified. If you're going to purchase, then the seller checks your identity against the database of of disqualified persons, and that is as far as I would allow it to go.

Originally Posted By: ZachTisdale

You have to agree though, that without some form of check, violent criminals could purchase firearms very easily...


What do you base this statement on? How easy or difficult is it for violent criminals to acquire guns? How do you know?

But the big question is: how could making it more difficult for the law abiding to acquire them possibly make it harder for criminals to get them? There is NO logic in that notion.
_________________________


Originally Posted By: Cleric
God I am hating caliber threads more and more

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#6133076 - 01/12/16 07:44 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: syncerus]
ZachTisdale Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 06/06/12
Posts: 111
Originally Posted By: syncerus
Originally Posted By: ZachTisdale

You have to agree though, that without some form of check, violent criminals could purchase firearms very easily... As it is now, they already can but they do have to look a little harder. If there was NO background check, such as through a private treaty sale, then the seller could be held responsible to some degree...


Before the Gun Control Act of 1968 people could buy firearms via mail without restriction.

1967 was the last complete year before the GCA 1968.
US Population in 1967: 197,457,000
US Murder in 1967: 12,240

In 1981 after 13 years of the Gun Control Act of 1968.
US Population in 1981: 229,146,000
US Murder in 1981: 22,520

According to these numbers, the murder rate **without any gun control** was 1 murder for every 16132 people.
The murder rate with gun control was 1 murder for every 10175 people.

That's an increase of about 63%.

In short, no, I don't have to agree with you. You're wrong.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm


Just for the sake of discussion, the statistics you listed do not separate gun crimes from other crimes.

The number of violent crimes rose from 1968 until 1994, when there was a decrease of some 100k crimes... Could the introduction of Clinton's Assault Weapon Ban have anything to do with that?


Edited by ZachTisdale (01/12/16 07:45 PM)

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#6133105 - 01/12/16 07:57 PM Re: 2nd Amendment rights vs the outbreak of violent shootings [Re: ZachTisdale]
BassCat'99 Offline
Tracker

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 921
Loc: Stratford Texas
THERE IS NO PART TO GIVE UP!!!!!!!!!!!What needs to the done is quit wet nursing these punk [censored], whinny [censored] spoiled piss ignorant dumb asses and start holding everyone that's EVERYONE responsible for all their actions. The problem stems from no responsibility for any damm thing. You can not legislate intelligence at all, it will take this lazy [censored] country to wake up to where we are headed and that is to dumb every thing up so no one's feelings are hurt. We are not far from the toilet handle being push and down the drain we go. I'll stop now.
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