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Another long range shot ethics question #6090634 12/18/15 02:16 PM
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Seems like there is quite a bit of debate on this topic. So here something I just thought about and wondering...

I hear all the time about bullet performance for game. Things about this expansion, that retention at such and such distances. Let's say in this scenario you happen to have your favorite 308 loaded with a bullet that is theoretically at it's best game performance (whatever that may mean to you) at distances of 400-600yards for a 308 based on typical muzzle velocities. Meaning at closer the expansion characteristics as not near as good because of high velocities and risk over penetration (clean through and through).

Is it "more ethical"
A) taking a 400-450yard shot within the sweet spot of the bullet knowing, obviously, you are more likely to not be as precise. OR
B) taking a shorter 150ish yard shot and risking over penetration.

I generally go for neck shots, but in this case I'd say it doesn't matter the wuss the question is still the same for any target spot.

And go!


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6090641 12/18/15 02:22 PM
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Im gonna say no.

I also feel that most non bonded core/guilding metal/partitioned bullets probably have better performance at further ranges and reduced velocities than they do at the point blank impact of what I would assume is where the majority of deer are shot.


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6090650 12/18/15 02:28 PM
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No.

A full metal jacket will kill if put in the right place. The closer shot is the more ethical shot. A couple tenth Mil shooter error at 150 yards is less significant than the same error at 400. Little to no wind error at 150.


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6090728 12/18/15 03:12 PM
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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6090744 12/18/15 03:20 PM
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I'd say its not so simple. At higher impact velocities you can have greater expansion which tends to diminish penetration. Besides, what is "over-penetration?" IMO, an exit is desirable.


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6090765 12/18/15 03:29 PM
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AR10, 10 shots FMJ at 100 yards and it's going down!

Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6090796 12/18/15 03:47 PM
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This ranks right up there with the whole 270 vs. 30.06 argument. Its a waste of time. What is ethical to you may not be ethical to me. Does that make either of us right or wrong? No! Just pick a good bullet, practice shooting at the distances you are going to shoot and pull the trigger when the time comes. We are all going to miss and/or wound game at some point of our life. Can happen at 75 yards or 575 yards.

What is more ethical shooting a deer at 300 yards with a 270 vs shooting one with a bow at 10 yards? How bout at 800 yards with a 338 lapua vs a crossbow at 20 yards? Just learn how to put your shot where you want it and know YOUR limitations with the weapon in your hands. Different for everybody.


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6090820 12/18/15 04:02 PM
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I would recommend a different bullet if you trust it at 500 yards and not 150, especially in a mild cartridge like the .308.

Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6090823 12/18/15 04:04 PM
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I say a well placed shot is better than a poorly placed shot. Regardless the distance.

Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6090830 12/18/15 04:08 PM
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Actually, your penetration will INCREASE at the slower speeds (or further distance). At the higher speeds, the bullet will upset, expand and fragment more, causing more surface area to slow the bullet down quicker. The slower speeds reduces the bullet expansion with lower surface area to slow it down in soft tissue, resulting in greater penetration.


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6090833 12/18/15 04:09 PM
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This is the issue with your big magnums pushing a lighter weight bullet and bullet impact speeds at 3000+ fps at close ranges.


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Sneaky] #6090854 12/18/15 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sneaky
I would recommend a different bullet if you trust it at 500 yards and not 150, especially in a mild cartridge like the .308.


This.


Originally Posted by Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: ChadTRG42] #6090932 12/18/15 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
This is the issue with your big magnums pushing a lighter weight bullet and bullet impact speeds at 3000+ fps at close ranges.


So going off this, but not shooting a magnum, but instead a 270win with 130gr Hornady Superformance SST. I haven't had the desired results with this round. Yes it's a tight shooting round, which is great on paper, but the results on animals has been subpar. 1 deer last year at 80-90 yards took a shoulder shot with no exit, a coyote last year at 150-160 yards took a shoulder shot with no exit. I had to track the deer for quite a ways, the coyote dropped where he stood. Is this a case of a round thats designed for longer distance being used too close?


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6090942 12/18/15 05:19 PM
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I know my limits and that's good enough for ne, you know, ethically speaking.


Originally Posted by unclebubba
Just to make sure that it is done thoroughly, I go both ways.

Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: BigPig] #6090961 12/18/15 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: BigPig
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
This is the issue with your big magnums pushing a lighter weight bullet and bullet impact speeds at 3000+ fps at close ranges.


So going off this, but not shooting a magnum, but instead a 270win with 130gr Hornady Superformance SST. I haven't had the desired results with this round. Yes it's a tight shooting round, which is great on paper, but the results on animals has been subpar. 1 deer last year at 80-90 yards took a shoulder shot with no exit, a coyote last year at 150-160 yards took a shoulder shot with no exit. I had to track the deer for quite a ways, the coyote dropped where he stood. Is this a case of a round thats designed for longer distance being used too close?


I have had hornady interlocks come apart and not exit with frequency. I believe the SST is a similar bullet other than it is tipped.


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: redchevy] #6090974 12/18/15 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: redchevy
Originally Posted By: BigPig
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
This is the issue with your big magnums pushing a lighter weight bullet and bullet impact speeds at 3000+ fps at close ranges.


So going off this, but not shooting a magnum, but instead a 270win with 130gr Hornady Superformance SST. I haven't had the desired results with this round. Yes it's a tight shooting round, which is great on paper, but the results on animals has been subpar. 1 deer last year at 80-90 yards took a shoulder shot with no exit, a coyote last year at 150-160 yards took a shoulder shot with no exit. I had to track the deer for quite a ways, the coyote dropped where he stood. Is this a case of a round thats designed for longer distance being used too close?


I have had hornady interlocks come apart and not exit with frequency. I believe the SST is a similar bullet other than it is tipped.


I am not a big fan of them at any range for anything other than varmints.

Since you don't know what ranges may be presented to you, I don't see any answer other than to shoot a bullet that will work at any range you might be shooting. By default, that means at least a somewhat sturdy bullet.

There are varmint bullets, medium-sized game bullets, heavy game bullets, and heavy dangerous game bullets. With differences in each.


Originally Posted by Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: redchevy] #6091124 12/18/15 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: redchevy
Originally Posted By: BigPig
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
This is the issue with your big magnums pushing a lighter weight bullet and bullet impact speeds at 3000+ fps at close ranges.


So going off this, but not shooting a magnum, but instead a 270win with 130gr Hornady Superformance SST. I haven't had the desired results with this round. Yes it's a tight shooting round, which is great on paper, but the results on animals has been subpar. 1 deer last year at 80-90 yards took a shoulder shot with no exit, a coyote last year at 150-160 yards took a shoulder shot with no exit. I had to track the deer for quite a ways, the coyote dropped where he stood. Is this a case of a round thats designed for longer distance being used too close?


I have had hornady interlocks come apart and not exit with frequency. I believe the SST is a similar bullet other than it is tipped.


If you're going to intentionally shoot them in the shoulder then yes, I would recommend a sturdier bullet. I'm surprised you didn't get an exit on the coyote but I can understand it on the deer. We use the .308 150 gr SST and the 95gr .243 and usually get exits with both shooting heart/lung region.


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: BigPig] #6091148 12/18/15 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: BigPig
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
This is the issue with your big magnums pushing a lighter weight bullet and bullet impact speeds at 3000+ fps at close ranges.


So going off this, but not shooting a magnum, but instead a 270win with 130gr Hornady Superformance SST. I haven't had the desired results with this round. Yes it's a tight shooting round, which is great on paper, but the results on animals has been subpar. 1 deer last year at 80-90 yards took a shoulder shot with no exit, a coyote last year at 150-160 yards took a shoulder shot with no exit. I had to track the deer for quite a ways, the coyote dropped where he stood. Is this a case of a round thats designed for longer distance being used too close?


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Brother in-law] #6091495 12/19/15 01:00 AM
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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6091552 12/19/15 02:08 AM
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When say shoulder shot, do you mean actual shoulder, or behind the shoulder in the vitals? That would make a big difference. Pass through would be alot less likely in the actual shoulder.


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Sneaky] #6091573 12/19/15 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted By: Sneaky
I would recommend a different bullet if you trust it at 500 yards and not 150, especially in a mild cartridge like the .308.


Amen


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: NMGW] #6091623 12/19/15 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted By: NMGW
Originally Posted By: Sneaky
I would recommend a different bullet if you trust it at 500 yards and not 150, especially in a mild cartridge like the .308.


Amen


Experienced hunters use a "different bullet"...... The Nosler Partition, because it always expands and it always penetrates. It is plenty accurate out to 500-or so yards, and will expand nicely over a wide velocity spread.

The less a hunter has to worry about, the better he will perform.


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6091648 12/19/15 03:36 AM
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Dawaba I fully agree and have used Partitions from less than 10 yards to over 500 with no complaints. Some other bullets that have worked well across different velocities and ranges Swift Sirocco, Nosler Accubond and Hornady Interbond. Sure those will all upset more at closer range but will still reliably expand at long range and hold together enough at short range for deep penetration.

I have been told on here that there is no need for those expensive bullets but I disagree. The cost of a few bullets is cheap compared to a hunt or lease.


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: dawaba] #6091654 12/19/15 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: dawaba
Originally Posted By: NMGW
Originally Posted By: Sneaky
I would recommend a different bullet if you trust it at 500 yards and not 150, especially in a mild cartridge like the .308.


Amen


Experienced hunters use a "different bullet"...... The Nosler Partition, because it always expands and it always penetrates. It is plenty accurate out to 500-or so yards, and will expand nicely over a wide velocity spread.

The less a hunter has to worry about, the better he will perform.


Truth.

The old school approach is the way to go. These ideas weren't developed arbitrarily overnight on a whim, it was a slow and steady progression involving success built upon success. Partitions have been around a long, long time and new bullets' performance is very often compared to them. There's gotta be a reason for that. I'm sure the next great leap in bullet technology will come, but I sure don't believe the fragmenting long-range bullet is it. Too many ways to fail, while a bullet like the Partition offers many ways to succeed.

Make mine a Partition, please...or something like it.


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Re: Another long range shot ethics question [Re: Korean Redneck] #6091718 12/19/15 04:45 AM
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What cracks me up is the "what's ethical to you may not be what's ethical to me" argument. If you can put a bullet precisely where it needs to be at whatever range then more than likely it's an ethical shot. If you're just a DA who has a great rifle and just can't shoot it well and you take the shot you are unethical. If you have a decent rifle and take a hundred yard shot YOU can't make, you are unethical.

Practice. Practice the shots you will take in the conditions you will take them. If it's mule deer or elk out to 500 yards in breezy fall conditions, practice those shots in the positions you are likely to shoot from.

In the end for me is less about ethics than it is about hunting. If you are out there just to take that long shot because that trips your trigger then call it what it is. You are a shooter, not a hunter.

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