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CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help #6088999 12/17/15 02:30 PM
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My wife's company is in the process of updating their employee manuals and policies. The topic of CHL and firearms being allowed by employees on site came up. Some managers are for and some are against. They are in a large building with about 20 floors (they occupy 1 floor) and building has security (in the lobby). My wife asked me about it, and I gave her some input. But I need to come up with more positives of why they need to allow it.

If they do not allow employees to carry, what legal fall backs could there be. Meaning, if they say no carry, do they have to provide security? My case was that you are taking away my right to defend myself, and the company has no security in place (other than the unarmed security personnel in the lobby). Is there legal issues after the fact if they have an incident?

Need input!


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Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6089031 12/17/15 02:52 PM
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If some managers do and some don't, have everybody get together and demand they allow carry or hire a couple armed guards. After that, defile managers that were against your carry rights. You choose how.

Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6089035 12/17/15 02:54 PM
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Do they own or lease the building? The owners may have a policy against weapons on the premises. But (except for special circumstances) cannot stop them from leaving their weapon in the vehicle.


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Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6089067 12/17/15 03:11 PM
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They lease/rent and the owner does not have any policy that they know of.


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Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6089091 12/17/15 03:29 PM
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Company could be held responsible for failing to provide a safe work environment in the event an incident occurs.

Last edited by TXGUNNER308; 12/17/15 03:30 PM.

Originally Posted by Superduty
I am still looking for the perfect apron, one with reinforced knee areas would be perfect.

Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6089104 12/17/15 03:39 PM
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I would think they would need to have proper signage in place too if the building is public.

below is a link to a video put together by the Department of Homeland Security that the company I work for distributed to us managers to share with our employees in case there was ever an active shooter here on campus ... (sorry, I don't know how to embed a video, so providing a link)



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Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6089105 12/17/15 03:41 PM
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The only way I see it is find out the managers that are against it and ask them why. Then very politely inform them with solid statistics that they are wrong.


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Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6089156 12/17/15 04:12 PM
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Following...
Per our handbook, we cannot carry and also have the unarmed guards up front. Fortunatly, I work from home 99% of the time.

Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6089160 12/17/15 04:13 PM
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The company I work for has a policy that does not allow concealed carry at work even though the building owners don't have 30.06 signage.

Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6089170 12/17/15 04:19 PM
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Probably stand a better chance in insisting the lobby security be armed.

Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: billybob] #6089270 12/17/15 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: billybob
Probably stand a better chance in insisting the lobby security be armed.


up


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Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6089304 12/17/15 05:54 PM
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This has just come up at our job as well. I've always been barred from carrying in our building so have to leave it in the truck. At our Christmas party I was informed they will be sending me to an active shooter training from our local PD and my boss which is not liberal by anymeans but she hasn't ever been for me carrying inquired about her getting a chl as well. So I told her all about it, and pointed her in the right direction to get it taken care of. Things seem to be looking up for me and my carrying situation at work. Hope it looks up for your wife as well chad.


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Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6089355 12/17/15 06:22 PM
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First off if CCW is not allowed in the building there MUST be the proper 30.06 Signs at every entry door to the building , not just one entry . That sign makes it illegal for anyone to carry inside in anyway . That's the law . If no signs are posted and a person is a trained qualified CHL person and the owner of the building request you to not carry inside the building then you MUST by law abide by the owners request , otherwise there can be a legal battle and perhaps if they wanted to dismiss you on those grounds legally .

If there are no signs and the owner of the building does not care BUT the boss request no carrying inside the offices they occupy then the employee MUST abide by the employers' request or suffer the same results as mentioned above . If no signs , the owner does not care and the boss says it's ok , then a CHL person is totally legal to carry on their job location but they are still legally bound by the law any place where a 30.06 Sign is posted .

Come Jan. 1st not only does a 30.06 sign must be posted but also a 30.07 sign must be placed . The 30.07 sign says it is illegal for ANY Open Carrying of a weapon on the premises . If there is a 30.06 sign but no 30.07 sign as of Jan 1st then a CHL person can Legally Open Carry on the premises with permission but it cannot be concealed , otherwise you will be breaking the law . If there is a 30.07 sign and no 30.06 sign then you can Conceal Carry with permission BUT you cannot Open Carry or you will be breaking the law . You can find these laws online ,
http://www.handgunlaw.us/ .

There is no law in the State of Texas than I have read that says any company must provide security for anyone just because they will not allow a CHL person to legally carry on the Premises but notice I specifically mean Premises cause even tho a building or job site has the proper signs posted Premises does not include the street or parking lot area one parks their vehicle on to go to work . In Texas the State Laws Specifies that ANYONE , even a Non-CHL person is allowed to legally carry a weapon inside their vehicle for protection and that does not place the vehicle in the Premises cause in the Premises is INSIDE a designated building or job site but does not include the surrounding parkinglot .

However Laws are Laws and each person is totally responsible for reading and knowing their State laws and not take into granite one reads on any website or forum that is not legally a State Law website . Meaning what I posted hear is what I know and by no means in anyway am I telling you anything to approve any actiions any person takes just because they have read what I posted above . READ THE LAWS OF YOUR STATE !!

Last edited by ronlhodges; 12/17/15 06:25 PM.
Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6089375 12/17/15 06:32 PM
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I would like to mention also that if you are a CHL person and any company or boss tells you you can carry but under the guidance of the company rules this puts you in a different category which therefore requires you to take special class training and you will get a different license cause it will now classify you as a guard person and therefore under different laws which can hender or stop you from carrying other places you go in a normal setting that you would with your regular CHL . My suggestion to you is DON'T do this procedure unless you wish to be reclassified and regulated as to how and when you can carry . If you do then when you and your friends of family go out to eat you cannot legally CHL as you did once before , you will be re-classified as a guard and can be held liable by law .

Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6089549 12/17/15 08:20 PM
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I won't be classified as a guard. I will only be carrying under the chl guidelines.


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Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: KRoyal] #6089660 12/17/15 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: KRoyal
I won't be classified as a guard. I will only be carrying under the chl guidelines.


I'm not sure you understood what I said, sorry. IF your boss says yes you can BUT UNDER COMPANY RULES OR MY GUIDELINES ONLY, this automatically reclassifies you , you have to say NO .

Last edited by ronlhodges; 12/17/15 09:32 PM.
Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ronlhodges] #6089801 12/17/15 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: ronlhodges
Originally Posted By: KRoyal
I won't be classified as a guard. I will only be carrying under the chl guidelines.


I'm not sure you understood what I said, sorry. IF your boss says yes you can BUT UNDER COMPANY RULES OR MY GUIDELINES ONLY, this automatically reclassifies you , you have to say NO .


So those teachers now getting cc approval on school grounds, per school policy, are being reclassified as well?


Originally Posted by Superduty
I am still looking for the perfect apron, one with reinforced knee areas would be perfect.

Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: The Dude Abides] #6090048 12/18/15 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted By: TXGUNNER308
Originally Posted By: ronlhodges
Originally Posted By: KRoyal
I won't be classified as a guard. I will only be carrying under the chl guidelines.


I'm not sure you understood what I said, sorry. IF your boss says yes you can BUT UNDER COMPANY RULES OR MY GUIDELINES ONLY, this automatically reclassifies you , you have to say NO .


So those teachers now getting cc approval on school grounds, per school policy, are being reclassified as well?


No, not necessarily and certainly not automatically... If I give specific CHL employees my permission to carry based on my criteria, then they are allowed by company rules to carry.

Company policy and state law are not the same thing. There are several distinctly different issues at play in this thread.

Marc

Last edited by Marc Kurth; 12/18/15 01:44 AM.

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Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: Marc K] #6090392 12/18/15 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: Marc


No, not necessarily and certainly not automatically... If I give specific CHL employees my permission to carry based on my criteria, then they are allowed by company rules to carry.

Company policy and state law are not the same thing. There are several distinctly different issues at play in this thread.

Marc


If the person/boss/owner gives specific guidelines that must be followed in order for a CHL person to carry then it gives authority to that person and responsibility for that CHL person to be responsible for others safety therefore reclassifying that CHL person as a guard and therefore it will require further Guard Training which also requires a different license to carry .

Otherwords in a simple way to explain . Say a person has a regular CHL . That person goes to a local church and carries while in church . Preacher finds out and tells the CHL person he cannot carry unless he follows a schedule time to carry and is giving directions they must also walk the premisies to make sure the building is safe from intruders and also told to sit or stand in a specific area during the sermon and keep watch for suspicious people . If the CHLperson agrees even tho there is not a job application filled out and no money exchanges hands that still classifies a CHL person as a guard which automatically reclassifies a CHL person as a guard and must have extra guard training to continue the exercise in church . A guard license is not the same classification as a regular CHL person . There are different laws for guards as to a regular issue CHL .

If you are not understanding I suggest to get with a CHL trainer/Teacher and discuss this and they will explain in a way you can understand better . If they are not available then contact a lawyer and ask . You might also be able to just call your local DPS office and ask .

The way to solve the problem tho is to simple just say No and if the preacher request you not carry inside the church then you must do so cause the Law is on the Preachers side . OR... , you can just simply go to another church .

One other point I will mention is if you are a Boss/Owner of the company you can give permission for a CHL person to carry providing they strictly follow the guidelines of the law , not discuss their CHL with anyone or show their weapon to anyone for any reason and that they need to keep it concealed or not according the the state laws and your preference of opinion . However you cannot post 30.06 or 30.07 signs and still be legal . And last don't give a CHL person specific guidelines and rules that they must follow . If they are a legal CHL person and you don't care if they carry on Premises then just say ok by me , just stay within the laws and keep it to yourself please . If other employees find out and it causes a problem we will have to deal with it as needed to make all feel comfortable in their working area . And there will be employees that will feel uncomfortable and will bring it to the attention of the Boss/Owner . Then they will have to deal with it as needed or bigger problems can arise .

Last edited by ronlhodges; 12/18/15 05:01 AM.
Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: Marc K] #6090413 12/18/15 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: Marc


Company policy and state law are not the same thing.

Marc


Exactly , Company Policies are Law of the Companies Jurisdiction ONLY and have no strength outside the company (only concerns people hired by said company) . State Laws are Law of the Land and are legal and binding to any and all within that States Jurisdiction for all people concerned living in or out of that state .

Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6090439 12/18/15 07:26 AM
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Not gonna be popular, but here it goes. If the company drafts policy against firearms, then that's there policy. Employees can be terminated for violating policy.

Its comparable to alcohol. Its legal, but there are policies in place not to bring it certain places. If there are warnings posted not allowing firearms, per request the company is saying you are not allowed with a firearms, meaning you are trespassing. Which is what a person can be charged with.

Corporate attorneys will look at liability of not allowing it versus liability of allowing it.

Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ronlhodges] #6090443 12/18/15 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: ronlhodges
Originally Posted By: Marc


Company policy and state law are not the same thing.

Marc


Exactly , Company Policies are Law of the Companies Jurisdiction ONLY and have no strength outside the company (only concerns people hired by said company) . State Laws are Law of the Land and are legal and binding to any and all within that States Jurisdiction for all people concerned living in or out of that state .


Exactly. Have argued this plenty. Most job sites and their office buildings (their premises) are gun free zones. They CANNOT prohibit you BY LAW from carrying a concealed hand gun or any long gun concealed or not concealed in your vehicle unless your work place falls under one of the exceptions. So, you can't carry when you walk through those doors into the office. You can't carry when you drive through that gate into a federal trade zone i.e. ship yard/fabrication yard/refinery. They have signs posted on the gates where security hangs out. No brainer. You can still be fired though, for having a deer rifle in your truck on a Friday if they find out and want to. State law says you cannot carry past a certain point, period. Company policy says that you cannot have a gun in your vehicle on their property. Property is different from "premises". I can be arrested for carrying into said "premises", but I cannot be for a gun in my vehicle in the parking lot. I can be fired though if they find out because I violated company policy. I learned this lesson first hand. I knew I could not have weapons past that gate, no need to anyway. I was driving to the lease that night and worked late. That night, they searched every vehicle leaving that parking lot. I had several rifles in cases in the back of my Blazer, security about chit themselves. Had been doing it for years, not against the law, but was my time to be searched even though I was running the job. roflmao Security took my guns that night, I came back the next day after the "big" meeting. Gave me my guns back, and told me I was no longer allowed on their property. You CAN be fired, (I got transferred), I didn't break the law. I broke company policy. You can be fired for anything. If you want to sue, that's a whole different ball game. Better have some money. There are people that have been fired at refineries here in CC for having empty shotgun shells and empty beer cans in the back of their trucks in an unsecured parking lot during dove season. Men fired because their truck was picked to be searched at random and there were 22 shells in the door. Not breaking the law, not going to jail, but you're fired.

Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: Roll-Tide] #6090452 12/18/15 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: Roll-Tide
Not gonna be popular, but here it goes. If the company drafts policy against firearms, then that's there policy. Employees can be terminated for violating policy.


What if said company drafts a policy that requires everyone to be armed at work, and you don't follow. Can they terminate you for not carrying at work?

Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: ChadTRG42] #6090769 12/18/15 03:30 PM
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Premises and Property are two different definitions. So depending how a policy is wrote and depending the State laws determines it's strength. In Texas State law says a gun in your vehicle is protected by law no matter where your vehicle is. As far as having your vehicle searched State laws will determine if it is legal.

Re: CHL- Employers making new policies- Need help [Re: Dry Fire] #6095614 12/22/15 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted By: Dry Fire
Do they own or lease the building? The owners may have a policy against weapons on the premises.

Certainly I may be wrong but I believe that regardless of the building owner's policy they would need to have the 30.06 sign otherwise your wife is free to legally carry. The same then goes for your wife's employer - they too would need to have the sign otherwise she would legally be allowed to carry.

Owner "policies", nor company "policies" trump law.

Supposing the owner and the employer have not posted - she's legal to carry *but in doing so her job would be at risk due to policy violation if she were caught*. Right or wrong. I expect legal matters to brought on the the employer in the end though. Point being, follow the law, not the policies.

=== Edit ===
An additional thought that occurred to me. What about non-employees that visit your wife's employer on business. They won't necessarily know what the policy is (no opportunity to comply) but they would certainly understand the posted sign (opportunity to comply).

I follow laws, not necessarily policies.

Last edited by Mickey Moose; 12/22/15 02:24 AM.

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