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theresa vail in trouble with fish and game #6072737 12/08/15 03:04 PM
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Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6072750 12/08/15 03:10 PM
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Idiot. Hopefully they will lock her up for a few months.


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Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6072753 12/08/15 03:12 PM
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Same rules need to apply to everyone, if she broke the law prosecute her as you would anyone else.

Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6072758 12/08/15 03:16 PM
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Just watching the show you can tell she is willing, but knows next to nothing about hunting. We all know why she has a TV show.

And, apparently, she has a dishonesty streak.

Last edited by Nogalus Prairie; 12/08/15 03:45 PM.

Originally Posted by Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6072920 12/08/15 04:30 PM
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Man, there has been just a rash of the TV show violators in the last few years, it would seem, everyone from Nugent to this woman.


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Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6072955 12/08/15 04:43 PM
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not very smart of the guides to try and pull a fast one when there are camera crews around... It all falls back on integrity, and obviously these people are lacking

Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6073156 12/08/15 06:34 PM
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Reading the account, I can easily see why SHE might not have known the tagging of the second bear was 'technically' illegal. Her GUIDES tried to 'right a wrong' and made poor decisions, they should have contacted the authorities right away to sort it out.

We are not told how the second bear (a Sow) was shot, but I can certainly imagine several scenarios where that could occur as an honest mistake.

Now, IF Ms. Vail was told by the guides that what they were doing wasn't legal...but what they thought was the best solution, then yes, she is complicit.

Until we know more about the incident...we should not rush to judgement, since as far as we know...the rest of her hunting history is spotless.

The filmed event was never aired...so we have only an UN-DETAILED account of it.

But for arguments sake, lets say it went like this:

Two bears are spotted (a Sow and Boar). You have a legal tag for one Bear. The Boar is shot, both bears run into the alders where you can't see either one. The Sow comes running back out and your guide instructs you to 'Shoot again', (thinking it is the previously wounded Boar). Sow runs back into the Alders and expires. When the party goes to retrieve what they think is the Boar, they find BOTH bears.

Now you've got two bears and ONE tag.

The guides... focusing on the main dilemma (no tag for the second bear), overlook (or perhaps intentionally ignore) the requirement to have a tag in possession BEFORE taking the game animal. They see the 'remedy' as simply securing a second tag. Ms. Vail (IF not aware of the problem) would naturally write in the date the animal was killed. A technicality that amounts to falsification, by 'backdating', in addition to not having a second tag to begin with.

We don't know exactly how things happened just yet or who knew what and when. If her guides were less than honest with Her, then she could have ignorantly (but honestly) followed their directions.

Just saying, lets not 'Hang Her' quite yet guys!

Last edited by flintknapper; 12/08/15 06:39 PM.

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Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: flintknapper] #6073198 12/08/15 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: flintknapper
Reading the account, I can easily see why SHE might not have known the tagging of the second bear was 'technically' illegal. Her GUIDES tried to 'right a wrong' and made poor decisions, they should have contacted the authorities right away to sort it out.

We are not told how the second bear (a Sow) was shot, but I can certainly imagine several scenarios where that could occur as an honest mistake.

Now, IF Ms. Vail was told by the guides that what they were doing wasn't legal...but what they thought was the best solution, then yes, she is complicit.

Until we know more about the incident...we should not rush to judgement, since as far as we know...the rest of her hunting history is spotless.

The filmed event was never aired...so we have only an UN-DETAILED account of it.

But for arguments sake, lets say it went like this:

Two bears are spotted (a Sow and Boar). You have a legal tag for one Bear. The Boar is shot, both bears run into the alders where you can't see either one. The Sow comes running back out and your guide instructs you to 'Shoot again', (thinking it is the previously wounded Boar). Sow runs back into the Alders and expires. When the party goes to retrieve what they think is the Boar, they find BOTH bears.

Now you've got two bears and ONE tag.

The guides... focusing on the main dilemma (no tag for the second bear), overlook (or perhaps intentionally ignore) the requirement to have a tag in possession BEFORE taking the game animal. They see the 'remedy' as simply securing a second tag. Ms. Vail (IF not aware of the problem) would naturally write in the date the animal was killed. A technicality that amounts to falsification, by 'backdating', in addition to not having a second tag to begin with.

We don't know exactly how things happened just yet or who knew what and when. If her guides were less than honest with Her, then she could have ignorantly (but honestly) followed their directions.

Just saying, lets not 'Hang Her' quite yet guys!


Decent point, but what about confirming shot 1 on animal 1 before taking shot 1 on animal 2. Isn't that the wiser way to go about things?

Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: DQ Kid] #6073275 12/08/15 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: DQ Kid


Decent point, but what about confirming shot 1 on animal 1 before taking shot 1 on animal 2. Isn't that the wiser way to go about things?


Im not taking sides, but ill just step aside and let you poke your finger in the bullet hole on the wounded and probably very upset male bear to insure it is indeed the original bear...

Sounds like a mistake was made and they tried to cover it up and hope it went away rather than take care of it.


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Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6073282 12/08/15 07:54 PM
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I agree but with tags being so limited/restricted, don't we owe it to the animal as well as other hunters?

Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: flintknapper] #6073286 12/08/15 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: flintknapper
Reading the account, I can easily see why SHE might not have known the tagging of the second bear was 'technically' illegal. Her GUIDES tried to 'right a wrong' and made poor decisions, they should have contacted the authorities right away to sort it out.

We are not told how the second bear (a Sow) was shot, but I can certainly imagine several scenarios where that could occur as an honest mistake.

Now, IF Ms. Vail was told by the guides that what they were doing wasn't legal...but what they thought was the best solution, then yes, she is complicit.

Until we know more about the incident...we should not rush to judgement, since as far as we know...the rest of her hunting history is spotless.

The filmed event was never aired...so we have only an UN-DETAILED account of it.

But for arguments sake, lets say it went like this:

Two bears are spotted (a Sow and Boar). You have a legal tag for one Bear. The Boar is shot, both bears run into the alders where you can't see either one. The Sow comes running back out and your guide instructs you to 'Shoot again', (thinking it is the previously wounded Boar). Sow runs back into the Alders and expires. When the party goes to retrieve what they think is the Boar, they find BOTH bears.

Now you've got two bears and ONE tag.

The guides... focusing on the main dilemma (no tag for the second bear), overlook (or perhaps intentionally ignore) the requirement to have a tag in possession BEFORE taking the game animal. They see the 'remedy' as simply securing a second tag. Ms. Vail (IF not aware of the problem) would naturally write in the date the animal was killed. A technicality that amounts to falsification, by 'backdating', in addition to not having a second tag to begin with.

We don't know exactly how things happened just yet or who knew what and when. If her guides were less than honest with Her, then she could have ignorantly (but honestly) followed their directions.

Just saying, lets not 'Hang Her' quite yet guys!


I almost agree with you. Here's my hang up. She pulled the trigger on the second shot and no-one forced her to do that. If she didn't know for sure that she was shooting at the already wounded boar then she should never have fired the second shot. Period, end of story. Always be sure of your target before firing a shot. If i'm elk hunting and have only an antless tag and I shoot an elk who's head is obstructed from my view and it turns out to be a bull then I don't get to say "well I didn't know it was a bull". I pulled the trigger so I'm responsible.

Last edited by soonerdg; 12/08/15 07:57 PM.
Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6073309 12/08/15 08:15 PM
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Stupidity is not defense to prosecution. If it starts with "I thought" boom, then trying to cover it up? sure. I don't for one reason think she isn't smart enough to know the rules, even if the guide doesn't. You have "one" tag, usually means you can kill "one" of those species.


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Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: Western] #6073375 12/08/15 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: Western
You have "one" tag, usually means you can kill "one" of those species.


Agreed, and I am sure Ms. Vail is more than capable of doing the math, my point was, I can easily imagine a scenario where she thought she WAS shooting the same animal, previously wounded. VERY different from intentionally taking a second animal, not having a tag for it. Surely, you don't think anyone there was that 'stupid'?


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Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6073403 12/08/15 09:04 PM
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I'm a high school teacher and as some of my student say about stealing, "It's only wrong if you get caught." I think that is what Ms. Vail and her guides were thinking at the time.


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Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: flintknapper] #6073417 12/08/15 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: flintknapper
Originally Posted By: Western
You have "one" tag, usually means you can kill "one" of those species.


Agreed, and I am sure Ms. Vail is more than capable of doing the math, my point was, I can easily imagine a scenario where she thought she WAS shooting the same animal, previously wounded. VERY different from intentionally taking a second animal, not having a tag for it. Surely, you don't think anyone there was that 'stupid'?




Agreed. Especially if you have the guide telling you to shoot. Your trusting your guide at that point.

I've seen this happen before where guy takes a shot, animal runs off and the guide thinks that it re-appears, tells client to shoot again and only to walk up and see you have two downed animals. Pretty funny to watch the owner of this ranch rip the guide a new one.

Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6073474 12/08/15 09:49 PM
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Quote:
I almost agree with you. Here's my hang up. She pulled the trigger on the second shot and no-one forced her to do that.

Correct, no-one forced her. I am sure she is not claiming that.


Quote:
If she didn't know for sure that she was shooting at the already wounded boar then she should never have fired the second shot. Period, end of story.

In the fantasy world of perfection, I suppose that is correct. Fortunately, the courts (if this goes there) do NOT demand 'perfection', but more often...'reasonableness' and some amount of evidence, motive, intent.


Quote:
Always be sure of your target before firing a shot. If i'm elk hunting and have only an antless tag and I shoot an elk who's head is obstructed from my view and it turns out to be a bull then I don't get to say "well I didn't know it was a bull". I pulled the trigger so I'm responsible.

In the example you gave, I would agree. Of course, it does not compare favorably with the situation we are talking about, for a number of reasons.

1. In your analogy... you pulled the trigger not knowing the sex of the animal. Ms. Vail did not.
2. In your analogy... the sex of the animal is readily determinable. I would challenge you to quickly determine the sex of a mature grizzly bear.
3. In your analogy...you are not dealing with a wounded (and potentially deadly animal), which adds quite a different element to the hunt. Common practice (bear hunting) is to get ANOTHER round on it as soon as you can, if the animal is still mobile.

But lets use your example anyway:

Suppose you are on a guided hunt, your very first try for Elk. In a timbered area, you spot a small herd of elk, you shoot a Cow just before they enter the timber. You lose sight of the herd, but suddenly they pop out the other side of the timber. First a Bull, you don't shoot for the obvious reason. Then a couple of cows with this years calves, no evidence of a wound, you wait. A cow appears, headed exactly the direction of the one you shot. It is limping and will be over the ridge in just a few seconds, possibly unrecoverable.

Your guide says "shoot" (reasonably believing this is your wounded Cow). You connect and the Cow goes down. You go to collect your prize...only to jump a wounded cow from its bed in the timber. You go to the downed cow and discover a large swollen ankle joint, just a natural injury. OOOPS!

You go to where you last saw the wounded cow, it has now expired. You backtrack the blood trail and there is no mistaking, this is the FIRST cow you shot. You have one tag. In the heat of the moment, you made a 'mistake', aided in part by your guide.

By God... we are going to bury you under the jail and disparage your family name the rest or our days! wink

Now, the law is law...and I am not contesting that in any way. But having no more evidence or information than we presently do...there are still those willing to judge the integrity and intent of all involved... and I believe that is wrong.


Last edited by flintknapper; 12/08/15 10:08 PM.

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Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: redchevy] #6073505 12/08/15 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: redchevy
Originally Posted By: DQ Kid


Decent point, but what about confirming shot 1 on animal 1 before taking shot 1 on animal 2. Isn't that the wiser way to go about things?


Im not taking sides, but ill just step aside and let you poke your finger in the bullet hole on the wounded and probably very upset male bear to insure it is indeed the original bear...

Sounds like a mistake was made and they tried to cover it up and hope it went away rather than take care of it.



^^^^^^^^ I think this is the most likely scenario too.

Clearly.. things did not go very well and I am not trying to excuse or justify poor decision making on anyone's part. I am just trying to point out that honest mistakes are possible, particularly under trying circumstances (if any existed).

Perhaps more information will surface and shed more light on the incident.


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Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6073520 12/08/15 10:13 PM
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Did y'all not read the part about buying a second tag after the fact and her lying about the date taken, etc. on the documents to cover her backside?


Originally Posted by Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #6073582 12/08/15 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
Did y'all not read the part about buying a second tag after the fact and her lying about the date taken, etc. on the documents to cover her backside?


Exactly. This went from maybe being an "honest mistake" to something more than that with the cover-up.

Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6073652 12/08/15 11:14 PM
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Her actions and later judgement were poor. I also question the guides judgement as well. Hopefully there was not malice intent, but rather stupid judgement after the bears were killed.


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Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #6073667 12/08/15 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
Did y'all not read the part about buying a second tag after the fact and her lying about the date taken, etc. on the documents to cover her backside?


The way the account is written....(unless I am missing something), a second tag was purchased the same day and delivered some time later (we are not told), perhaps that day or the next. She did not lie about the date the animal was 'taken', in fact...she/they attempted to be truthful about it. The problem is...a tag was not in their possession BEFORE a second animal was taken (a violation by the letter of the law, irrespective of mistake).

We don't know that Ms. Vail had any knowledge of the requirements or if she was just following what her guides told her would be the solution. Ignorance of the law does not excuse her from the liability, but that is not what I am trying to establish. I am simply saying...that IF it were not Her 'intent' to deceive, then she is not worthy of the character assassination that is sure to follow.

I believe her guides are most likely responsible for this going down the wrong path to begin with. Also, if you think her to be knowingly complicit, then we must reconcile why She and her staff reported the incident when they got back?


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Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6073733 12/09/15 12:02 AM
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Quote:
1. In your analogy... you pulled the trigger not knowing the sex of the animal. Ms. Vail did not. Well, yes she did otherwise there wouldn't be an issue. No Sir, the first animal shot was known to be a boar, in your example, you would have shot NOT knowing the sex. Follow?


Quote:
2. In your analogy... the sex of the animal is readily determinable. I would challenge you to quickly determine the sex of a mature grizzly bear. Exaclty my point. She didn't know but she shot anyway. Again, you have missed the point or I have failed to make it. There is no readily determinable way to tell a male grizzly from a female (assuming both are roughly the same size) as there is with a Bull or Cow elk. The quick appearance of an animal (nearly identical to another) would easily create a situation of mistaken identity.




Quote:
3. In your analogy...you are not dealing with a wounded (and potentially deadly animal),which adds quite a different element to the hunt. Common practice (bear hunting) is to get ANOTHER round on it as soon as you can, if the animal is still mobile. I dissagree here. A wounded elk would be extremely deadly. And I agree that you should get another round in the wounded animal ASAP. But you've got to determine if the wounded animal is what you're shooting at. I see you will not be persuaded that an honest mistake could be made afield, but are instead intent to show accountability, something I am not necessarily arguing. But it is well for us to always examine WHY something happened and not just WHAT happened. Otherwise, we would have no need of courts and juries.


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Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: redchevy] #6073766 12/09/15 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted By: redchevy
Originally Posted By: DQ Kid


Decent point, but what about confirming shot 1 on animal 1 before taking shot 1 on animal 2. Isn't that the wiser way to go about things?


Im not taking sides, but ill just step aside and let you poke your finger in the bullet hole on the wounded and probably very upset male bear to insure it is indeed the original bear...

Sounds like a mistake was made and they tried to cover it up and hope it went away rather than take care of it.


Yep... film crew would rat them out when the accounting on the hunting budget wasn't adding up and there's an expensive hunt on film that's a disaster.

Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6073798 12/09/15 12:29 AM
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Accidents happen. She did buy another tag for the second animal. I think those of you calling for jail time are crazy. How many people in this situation with no cameras rolling would have just collected their bear and left the other one laying right where it fell?

Re: theresa vail in trouble with fish and game [Re: txhunter1010] #6073804 12/09/15 12:32 AM
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From the article

"Vail also is charged with unsworn falsification, another misdemeanor. Prosecutor Aaron Peterson in a criminal complaint said Vail signed and backdated a big game tag record to make it appear she had purchased the tag before shooting the bear.

Also charged in the case are master guide Michael Wade Renfro, 46, and assistant guide Joseph Andrew Miller, 45. They conspired to cover up Vail's violation by obtaining the second bear tag after the bears died and submitted wrong information to game authorities, charging documents say.


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