From a training for FT or HT perspective I can understand the thought process of not hunting a dog until a certain point in training. However I got my pup to hunt. Training and working is fun and rewarding on it's own but in the end you only get so many seasons with your hunting partner.

Just to clarify training is training and the standard is the standard. Ask anyone who trains dogs if they do basics any different for a gundog, hunt test dog, or FT dog, and they will tell you it is all the same.

As for hunting the dog early, nothing good can come of throwing anything, puppy or human, into a situation where they have not been prepared ahead of time.

As for doves: retrieving doves is the quickest way to erode what you have just done. Feathers come out and even dogs with great mouth habits will juggle, chomp, or spit dove occasionally. I'm not saying never dove hunt your dog just do it when he's conditioned enough for it not to cause problems.

Dove and quail are bad with that for sure. Honestly, dove are only a quick diversion for a weekend before early teal and bow season. If your dog has the instinct and drive for real birds then it can be a great way to focus that drive. Or make them where they like bumpers less . . .

Sounds good. I won't take him then

By what I have read on this thread, it sounds like your FF training has moved quickly - great job. FF training must include birds and it sounds like you have started this. It is always best to do this with the table and in a controlled situation if possible. But it is hard for most everyone to have doves and other types of birds at your disposal. You may have to do some of this in the field.

If you go dove hunting, go with training in mind. As long as your focus is training your dog and not gunning birds, all should go well. Shoot one bird, put down your gun and then work your dog through the process to fetch, hold and deliver to hand. Once you work through the first delivery, toss the bird out and have your dog pickup and deliver again. Repeat.

I have found with dove(especially those first few) that after I say "give", I help swipe out some of the feathers still lingering in my dog's mouth. That first dove will loose a lot of feathers if your dog rolls it around, so if you can, shoot another and repeat the process. Your training with dove may be more on hold than fetch.

I am confident all will go well. However, if things go south, just pack it in but be sure to take a dove or two with you. Freeze them, and repeat the FF dove process with frozen birds.

Use this same approach with other birds new to your dog.

I worked doves with my pup in September. Even at four months she was willing and able to retrieve them. I worked her with help, them tossing dead birds from cover and me firing then sending her. She even retrieved several birds from the tanks. However I wasn't FF training and when she delivered the birds I immediately took them so there would be no dropping or chewing issues. Personally I only shot half a dozen birds and she did well for her age but my expectations were low and it was more about having her there than hunting her.

So when I actually created a pile (and not a line of bumpers) over the weekend, the dog did much better. He still ran a straight line to the pile, as soon as he'd get there I'd nick him and he would pick up a bumper. As soon as he went for a bumper I blew the whistle command for come, and he'd spin around and come back to heel.

Each time I'd send him, I'd back up about 10 paces while he was running to the pile and rinse and repeat (my pile contains 6 bumpers). I'm running out of room in my yard and we're probably up to 100 yards now on our pile (I'm getting to the max distance I can run him in my yard).

I've also incorporated another drill to mix things up with FTP. I'll walk the dog at heel and drop a few bumpers behind me to where he does not see them. I'll walk anywhere between 30-80 yards, then turn around and send him to retrieve those bumpers. Up to this point, he'd always seen me put all the bumpers in the pile while he waited at place, so he knew they were there. During this drill, he had no idea the bumpers where there. I spun him around and to heel and commanded "dead bird back," he kind of looked up at me like "what are you talking about... there's no bumpers out there" but he ran back anyway because of the FTP drills we'd been doing. He ran right into the bumper, I nicked him for fetch, and he picked it up and ran back to me. He had this look on his face like... hey! look what I found out there. It was pretty funny.

He's got fetch and hold down with bumpers now. I just need to do a little more work with actual birds and I think we will be finished with FF.

Congratulations!! Wasn't so hard after all. Sounds like you have a very compliant dog that wants to work and please. One word of caution, be careful not to test your dog too early and too often. There is a difference between training and testing. If you're not sure which you are doing then think of your initial thought to yourself when you set up training that day. If your thought was "Im going to work on this concept. I anticipate the dog will do this and this is how I'm going to correct it" you're training. If your thought was "lets see what he does" you're testing. Make sure training always outweighs testing or you will see that attitude diminish.

Good luck

I got real lucky I got a good dog. I mean I work hard at training him. We have worked almost every day at least twice a day since I picked him up when he was 7 weeks in July, except when he had that issue with his shoulder. I am by no means a good trainer but this dog catches on quick which makes things really easy.

It does make it tricky though because sometimes I wonder how in the world a dog can pick up and retain something so fast or I worry all the time that we are moving too fast through training. The only way I can test that is by always starting out where we left off the day before and using that as a benchmark for how well he retained it. I will also go back to previous drills from weeks back or throw in obedience stuff.

I'm excited, I think Jay has a hunt test scheduled in March and we are looking forward to going that and seeing what he can do. I can't wait for early teal season next year either... ready to see this guy pick up some ducks!!!

So are you having to nick him to pick up the bumper? Or is this just to fix "shopping? " Are you nicking on the initial send and in route?

Jay I don't understand the reason to force a dog on birds at this stage, could you explain this reasoning?

Robby

I nick him on the in route, but less and less frequently now. He no longer requires any nicks at all, but I was told by several trainers that this is good practice early on in the FTP process.

I think Jay was talking in a sense of if I wanted to take my pup
Dove hunting this year... but from everyone's advice, I decided against that.

You should also force from your side. Back, nick, back. This gives you a tool to fix no-goes. I would also be careful bumping the dog before it picks up the bumper it could cause other issues.

Robby

Robby,

The end game is delivering a bird to hand, so once I am past dowels, bumpers and other objects, I want to bring in a bird. Some dogs nail this after the previous is done but some have issues. Every dog is different. Do this on the training table and yard if you can, but if not, be prepared to do it in the field.

As soon as we start talking about forcing to pile or running ladder lines, we are discussing what most pointing dog owners will never need and some may not understand. A majority of retriever owners will never care to go there either. I expect we have a wide variety of gun dog owners following this thread. BradyBuck made great progress (as expected) with his dog, so for me, if he wanted to go dove hunting it was fine assuming the key focus was to reinforce his FF training with dove. He can do this now or next September.

I hope this clarifies my comments.