Tony, that makes sense to me now... lol. I thought there was some kind of magic reason I didn't understand to start them elevated like that

I'm starting to go crazy with this to be honest... I think I've been working him on this about 2 weeks or so... now I've still got to move him to the ground... go through the entire process again until he picks it up off the actual ground... then start doing walk ups... then go back and start the whole thing over with collar and ear pressure. I've noticed I'm starting to rush things to get through it and I know that's never a good thing... but I'm going to slow down a bit and really focus on doing this right since it takes so much time.

Blah... FF is the most monotonous part of training a gun dog... no question. I hope it pays off in the end, cause this is a hell of a process, lol.

I used a paint roller I thought the PVC wrapped was a good idea. Don't rush or push him...two weeks sounds WAY fast to be going to the ground already. But it also sounds like you didn't collar conditioning first so you've just done ear pinch and no collar work. It appears and sounds like he's getting it.

Don't question if it will be worth it...it will pay off 10 fold and is the foundation (outside of obedience) for all the rest of your training. Especially if you intend to work hand signals into his abilities...no way of teaching him to drive to a pile without using the "fetch" command, it eventually gets replaced with "back" or "over" but it's the basis.

Good luck! I'm no pro and my dog isn't perfect so take all that for what you paid for it.

Do you guys think I should start using collar pressure on the table before I move him to the ground? I can work on ear pinch a few more days, then switch to ear pinch and collar pressure, then just collar pressure? He's picking up off the table clean now with just the ear pinch. Then I can move him to the ground and start working on walk ups with just collar pressure?

I would continue with whatever program you are following. You are going to have to revisit things any way you do it when you get to the ground. Dogs are very location and routine oriented. For this reason you could teach something in the driveway and move six feet over into the grass and the dog will look like a calf looking at a new gate. Don't think of it as reteaching think of it as conditioning the commands in a new location because that is what you are doing. Don't get into a rush. Training your dog is a process and they are all different. This is dog training. Believe it or not this is one of the easiest things you will teach your dog because it is a step by step process. If you think you're banging your head against the wall now wait until you get into transition.

Soo, I don't understand why you're not throwing marks or happy bumpers for the dog Afterwards?
This reasoning is really old school.

Robby

Tony,

Thanks for the advice. I'll make sure I take my time on it, and I don't mind it so much (I know I said above I was going crazy) It just hasn't been my favorite part of training so far. The dog is doing much better than I am with it. If I've got to do it several times on/off the table with several different pressures, then that's what I'll do. And I'll keep doing it until there's no doibt he has it. I could tell I was starting to try and move him a little too fast.

My question above was because I rewatched some videos and reread the FF method in Dokken's book (I try and do that for each step so I don't miss anything). One says to introduce collar pressure before you take the dog off the table and one says to wait until after you take him to the ground. Both trainers have had the same steps in the process up to this point.

Once again, thank you for taking the time to provide me with advice on this... I really enjoy training dogs, and especially like hunting them once they are trained. My end goal is not to produce and field trial dog, but I do want him to get all his hunt tests passed. In my limited experience with this, he seems like he's going to be a great dog and I feel like I owe it to him to do so. I couldn't do it without guys like you and Jay and others providing me advice.

Cracker always loved getting on the FF table.

In that case do electric fetch on the table before moving to the ground. And I agree with robby, I throw fun bumpers during FF. Just don't try to enforce a standard that isnt there yet. It's a reward not a mark.

How do you experienced FF people view the time line of the process. I had an old timer tell me to get in and get out it.

I was being too thorough with each step and he could see it in my dog. I am sure with experience you can make a better read on the dog and move along quicker. He said you can always backup a little if need be.

His basic statement was that inexperienced trainers apply pressure far too long not knowing exactly when to take the next step. He was big on fun bumpers in all training situations especially FF.

Can you get the job done in 10 days correctly or is it a 3 to 4 week process no matter how the dog is progressing?

That's a good question Leonardo.
I had my dog FF by a pro trainer, so I don't have the answer.
I do know some dogs take longer than others to get through the process. I would only be guessing, but if the dog is understanding the pressure, and is complying with whats asked, I think I would move on to the next step. Again, I didn't FF my dog. He doesn't handle pressure very well, and so I thought it best to let a pro handle it.

That's a hard question to answer because it depends on your interpretation of what force fetch entails and also what steps you have done previously in your program. For instance I believe that force fetch includes everything from the first day of hold through the end of collar force to the pile. Also, I collar condition during basic obedience. Some popular programs out there do this and some don't. If the one you use doesn't then you have to ear pinch to the ground, walking fetch, in some cases whip fetch (which some do and some don't. I don't) and then go back and collar condition and do it all again with the collar. Some add three handed casting in there and don't do FTP until all that is complete. So, you can see what the confusion would be as far as timeline.

I do agree with the principal of getting out of pressure as soon as possible. I believe that this makes things black and white for the dog. By getting out of pressure I mean you no longer have to use pressure every command but still use it for enforcement or lack of effort, not totally abandon it. The principal that needs to be understood about pressure is that the dog needs to understand why he is getting pressure and what to do to turn it off. The thing that a lot of people don't understand is that the dog also needs to learn that they can avoid it completely and also that they have to WANT to turn it off. That is where dogs of different temperaments and the ability to read them come into play. I believe that by getting out of pressure sooner the dog learns these principals quicker.

So, in saying all that, people that have a lot of experience doing this learn to read the dog and also understand what needs to be solid now and what can be cleaned up later. This is bad advice to give to a first time trainer though because they are not experienced in reading dogs, therefore most programs will recommend that you have one thing solid before moving on to the next.

As far as my timeline, I cc during obedience, don't use a table, throw fun bumpers during FF. I do it off the ground with ear pinch and then collar pressure, first low level continuous and then nicks. I transition from hand to ground to walking fetch then FTP. When the dog is locking into the pile, going and returning with style, coming to heel properly and delivering to hand without blinking or no goes and can be forced enroute without any adverse reaction I consider FF complete other than possibly going back with birds if there are any issues. I have found the average dog takes four weeks but routinely have some that go 8. I have had some that will fly through OB and FF but they are usually the ones with over the top desire.

So......we're back to it depends on the dog!!!!

Force fetch goes from hold through the double t. It can't be done thoroughly in 2 weeks. You're forcing the dog past the over piles to the back pile. I personally don't use the collar on fetch. Only obedience and then force to pile. I continue to throw marks for the dogs, just don't put pressure on delivery to hand, or dropping on the retrieve until I am sure they know fetch and delivery.
This is all considered to be "yard work", not necessarily FF.


Robby

Tony i appreciate the time for your answer. It reinforced most of what i have been told and learned thus far. I recently forced my first two dogs from start to finish and the difference between the two were night and day.

I don't understand how you guys can go on and on with dogs that were bred to retrieve. I even put little Muffin through the process. She caught right on. I used a ribbon on her toe.



She was holding in no time.




She. Had no trouble switching to wild quail.

That's awesome Bill

How is Muffin with casting off a point at 150 yards with a 20mph cross wind?

That's the difference

Or getting into the water at 300 yds.

Robby

You can force any fur bag to pick up whatever..BUT you can't turn any dog into a "working" retriever if it does not like to actually retrieve or have the drive to move forward through the training it will fail sooner or later it will give up!!! Notice I said working retriever...Not all retrievers will be able to or will want to do the work (Like birds)...Force Fetch has most people thinking a dog will retrieve a bird even if it has zero interest in birds..Why does a overworked dog bump a bird it's dieing to pick up even though it's Forced...It has to pick up the object and want to pick up that object for the FF to come into play..You can not say fetch to a dog at 200 yds and have it magically pick up a bird it has no interest in picking up..it will just avoid both you the object and the command..You can force most any dog to the back pile BUT they best be crazy for bumpers and birds to achieve what you want or you may bury yourself fast..They may amble out but not care about picking up bumper or bird..FF makes the dog HOLD onto the object no matter what is going on around them NOT turn them into a bird crazy dog...Force to the back pile makes the dog run in a straight line after something it loves but has absolutely no clue where it is...It either winds it or is handled to it...BUT it does not make it pick it up if it does not want to pick it up!!! Many a over worked, over juiced, FF dog has clammed up from miss thinking on the trainers end

Okay, so the last few days I introduced collar pressure w/ ear pinch. Then solely collar pressure, continuous at first and now nicks. I always remove pressure as soon as he got the object in his mouth. If he dropped it, pressure was immediately applied w/ fetch command and hold reinforced w/ positive reinforcement. He will fetch now with no pressure applied on fetch command on the table and on the ground. He requires a nick about 30-50% of the time if I place the object away and do a walk up.

The day I switched him from the table to the ground he didn't miss a lick. He's picked up whatever object we are working with (chunk of wood, dowel, bumper, or PVC) anywhere I leave it for him. Bottom line, I can walk anywhere in the yard now, place an object on the ground and walk my dog up to it, command fetch, and he will pick it up (sometimes will require a nick with collar on longer walk ups) and not let object go until I tell him to. That's where I'm at. If I even reach for his ear, he immediately pushes his head forward and opens his mouth grabbing for the object.

I'm assuming I need to work walk-ups a few more days until he's 100% no pressure and he has that down and then move to FTP? Do you guys try walk ups on strings of multiple objects? Do I need to do this with a bird as an object as well?

Thanks again for the help.

PS... I got my chunk of wood picture too :-)

I like to do sort of a bridge from walking fetch to FTP. I do this by stopping on walking fetch and letting the dog lunge 6 or so feet forward to the bumper and then come back to heel and deliver. This gets the mechanics of moving away from the handler and then returning to heel and delivering down prior to going to pile work. You would be surprised the issues that you may run into when the dog is first trying to walk and chew gum at the same time but it does keep a lot of pressure and confusion out of pile work. I would recommend not starting this until the dog is 100% percent picking up on command without pressure with a few enroute nicks mixed in to make sure there is a stable reaction to pressure.

Thanks Tony. I'll continue to work on walk ups for a few days then until no pressure is needed. Will throw in a few reinforcement nicks here and there to keep him honest. I'll start brushing up and reread FTP again to see how I need to set that up when the time comes as well.

There's some light at the end of the FF tunnel :-)

Do y'all do stick fetch?

Robby

So I did my first force to pile this afternoon (I think, lol). I worked him on a few sessions of walk ups like Tony suggested yesterday and this morning and he was having really good sessions. You could tell he knew he had it figured out... his head was up, he was paying attention, and he was really focused.

He was 100% on walk ups for two sessions this morning, so this afternoon I set a straight line of 6 bumpers up starting at about 10 feet from place stretching out to about 35-40 feet. I sent him using the fetch command. He ran past the first two bumpers and grabbed the third one and brought it back to heel. Then he picked up the fourth, fifth, and sixth. Always skipping the first two bumpers. After he got 3,4,5, & 6 he picked up bumper #1 (with a nick) and then bumper #2 last.

I wasn't really sure what to do when he skipped the #1 and #2 bumpers on that first session (I think I should have nicked him right before he got to bumper #1 and commanded fetch again). I think I may have spaced them too closely as well (about 5 feet apart). I simplified and put 3 bumpers out the next go round and spread them out further apart (10 feet this time out to 30 feet) and he picked up bumper #2, then bumper #3, then bumper #1. I also sent him on "dead bird back" this time instead of "fetch" and he didn't have any trouble with the change in command terminology.

I did notice that he had a ton of drive today. He was absolutely blasting to the bumpers as soon as I said "dead bird back," and hauling butt back to heel. You could really tell he loved this drill.

Anyway, does anyone have suggestions for getting him to pick up bumpers in order or should I be concerned with that at this point and just keep working him on it and it will fix itself through repetition?

Thanks again for any advice!!!

I don't think it matters as long as he's not "shopping" (checking out multiple bumpers before picking one up)

All the force to pile drills I've seen actually just have a pile...not bumpers spaced out.

Are you sending him some from the front sit position?

I don't do stick fetch anymore. I think it is a good thing for distraction proofing a dog that needs it but because I CC during obedience I just follow through with the collar and don't really need the stick as a means of compulsion. I also don't recommend it to new trainers because I feel that timing is critical and is the one thing that first timers lack.

hunting_guy: your dog is giving you a read that he wants to stretch his legs a little bit. I don't get my panties in a wad over shopping. You do want to separate the bumpers but in more of a pile than a line. Shopping is really just a non compliance with the here command so if I have an issue I just correct with nick "here!". You should be blowing the come in whistle as soon as the dog is about to make it to the pile and is lunging for the bumper. This makes it clear to the dog that you are asking him to retrieve and come back immediately. Any failure to do so should result in a correction.

Put your bumpers in a pile with separation and he will stop over running some. Start backing up as he shows confidence and competence. And don't forget to mix in nicks to get the enroute force down and make sure there are no adverse reactions. One out of every three or four should have some pressure with another "back" command to solidify that is what he should be doing. Initially the Nick should come when he's almost to the pile to alleviate confusion. Then you can start mixing up the distance. And remember, a good dog can count so mix it up.

Yes... I'm sending him from sit, heeled at my left side for right now from his place (a 2'X2' slightly elevated platform). On marks he goes on "Buck" and on "FTP" or I guess in my case "force to a line of bumpers, lol" he's going on "dead bird back."

I'll just try putting them in a pile and do a few sessions like that, backing up a few yards each time he goes so the pile is further and further away.

I'd researched that placing the bumpers in a line progression helps them run straighter blinds, but he doesn't really seem to have trouble with running straight lines at this point. I ran him on a fresh duck I killed this morning in the yard (not on a hunt, but when I brought the bird back to the house to clean) at about 50 yards and he did great.

He's still a little bit rough with actual birds (he really chomps down when he fetches)... but much less than before and he is delivering to hand fairly well. He's had a steel trap for a jaw since he was a pup (his dad was the same way), he doesn't necessarily chew on them, but you can tell he still doesn't just want to give them up that easily either. But I'm not going to complain about that, I'd rather him hold the bird firmly than drop it.

I'm REALLY contemplating on taking him on a dove hunt one afternoon this week... but I'm not sure if that will help or hurt his training.

Thanks again guys... I'll try and post some more pictures of his progress on FTP this afternoon.