You sure? Did brianl open up his range session with this group?

I'm not saying he did or didn't, how in hell would I know? BUT, it's meaningless if it's the third or fourth group fired. It's shot #1 that counts the most. You don't get to fire two or three groups at deer, as far as I know. Maybe I hunt in the wrong county though.

I think there are valid points being made on both sides. But I also think the "Long Rangers" very often too easily gloss over/rationalize/ignore many things to feel OK about shooting at a game animal that is a speck in the distance. Again, I think the LR "cool factor" being pushed now contributes mightily to this.

LR shooting is cool. I would like to get into it one day. But the transfer of LR shooting from paper to animals is, by and large, an unfortunate trend with a lot of unseemly consequences to many of us.

There is a difference between hunting a game animal and shooting a game animal. To most of us who have hunted a long time, for which it is a passion, and who generally adhere to the "sportsman" tradition described by charlesb - it's hard to comprehend why anyone would get much out of shooting any game animal that one is unable to get closer than 800-1000 yards plus to. To actually set up/plan for such a shot seems crazy to me. I get it probably eliminates much of the excitement of "buck fever", but isn't that excitement part of the essence of hunting? I see guys on "Best of the West" climb a knoll, spot a ram on a distant mountain, shoot it, and spend half a day finally getting to it. The only reason the hunter knew to shoot it is because some guide/spotter assured them it was a nice one. He never had the slightest "hunter's connection" with the now-dead animal.

That "hunter's connection" with our quarry is at the heart of this entire discussion. Many will understand what I am talking about when I say that. Some will not. For those who do not - you are missing out on the real essence of big game hunting.

Too many these days are missing out. Not just with "LR hunting" but with many other trends in hunting that make it much more about killing and much less about hunting. And it's a shame. Sometimes us "old schoolers" can be just hard-headed and slow to adapt. But, sometimes, we can have things to say that may be worth listening to.

I'll use my internet relationship with FiremanJG as an example of where I am coming from. I think he is a great guy with a big heart. Because of this, I don't believe he will mind me "picking" on him a little.

He and I have had some pretty heated discussions on this subject. I have come to realize that in many of those discussions I was wrong and out of line. He is committed and dedicated to being the best shooter he can be. It is his passion.

It is not my passion. Hunting is my passion. While JG spends tons of range time honing his craft, I spend similar amounts of time at my place in east TX and out west watching and learning about the animals I hunt (and other animals and plants and scenery and just nature in general). That is my passion.

Once I understood his passion for shooting also made him passionate about making a clean, humane shot on animals - then my ardor against his willingness to take what would be an unethical shot for me went away.

But I note that even he has never talked about taking a shot at an animal at more than 540 yards - and that at a coyote. He is one of a handful who could easily justify in his mind taking shots at much longer distances.

Many "Long Rangers" do not exhibit such discipline when it comes to shooting at game animals. I see it all too often.

I didn't see a picture of a deer shot in the neck at a claimed 800 yards. I saw a nice shot group.

If you can shoot this good at 800, why can't you place a 400 or 500 yard shot ethically, if you have data on your rifle for these ranges, confirmed on paper?

Just because the rifle and shooter are proven at 800, does that make 400 or 500 yards not a "long range" shot?

NP, it was ten miles of bad road, but I'm glad we got to the end of it.

Yes, I am sure that JG's passion for clean, ethical shots at game is why he got his panties all in a knot at what I have had to say in the first place, instead of backing me up.

My theory about this is that his vision was obscured by the dollar signs in his eyes. Thus the childish, ugly posts, etc..

None of the crude ignorance that I have seen served up here has changed one iota of my feeling expressed in the original post, most particularly:



If JG and a few of his pals had not put so much energy and uncivilized behavior into throwing hissy-fits and making character attacks over this, I might have been willing to entertain a belief in one or two of them as sportsmen. As it is, though... ( Hand tipping, spilling sand.)

JG and his pals deliberately set out to create ill-will, instead.

"Shut up!" they explained.

In our universities, it is difficult to hold an individual opinion, conduct an adult discussion, and engage in free speech because of the fascism there. - If only that were the only place where this was so.

Dollar signs, that's a good one.

For every THF member that pays for a day on my range, I answer rifle, ammo, scope questions to 5 more via PMs every week.


Keep digging...

Interesting thread for sure. I try not to judge what other hunters do. Much of how we hunt depends on where we hunt and the terrain.

That being said, one of the services on Charle's website is to mount a scope & a separate service is to sight in "your" rifle with your ammo. I hope you give your customers a lecture on being a sportsman when you do this for them. Otherwise, this is extremely hypocritical of you. If a guy can't be bothered or doesn't have the basic skill to mount a scope and sight in his own rifle, he has no business hunting. I mean, heck, most hunters at least fire a shot at the range to check zero before the season.

Charles what's the difference in your mind between a long range shot and a shot on a running animal? Sense you see one as unsportsmanlike and one is ok.

Not exactly rocket science, there.

How far away are you, if you take a shot at a running animal (typically done at very close range) and a twig or whatever causes the shot to go wrong?

You are making a lot of assumptions there about customers who pay to have the scope sighted in.

A lot of people who can only imagine the gunsmithing profession tend to make those kinds of assumptions.

Especially if job number one for them is to be a malicious troll.

How can you be certain of what is behind your target on a close up running shot? How much time do you have to take that shot? If you have time to determine it is safe to take the shot, why didn't you shoot before your quarry bolted?

But strangely, no comment about anything else said in that post.

I'm still waiting on answer. A twig can be hit on a standing deer. It also depends on if the twig is from the deer. Big difference if the twig is two feet from the deer or 50.

I will agree is difficult to hold an opinion around here without being pilloried sometimes.

I also know that arrogance in the face or arrogance (real or perceived) never changes minds or encourages reflective discourse.

LOL, what a giant baby you are. I think everyone knows who the troll is Charles.

Why are you so concerned about game animals? Do pigs and varmints not deserve the same respect?

Hard to believe that any experienced hunter (as opposed to a game shooter) would have to wonder about any of those issues.

Are you by any chance a "long range hunting" enthusiast?

A more telling question would be why you are apparently not concerned about wounding or crippling a game animal.

Your question makes it sound as if you have never been exposed to hunting in your life, as the attitudes about varmints vs game animals goes back a very, very long time. Knowledgeable sportsmen everywhere have understood this distinction for hundreds of years. - But you are not aware of that, somehow.

Right.

charles,
how long have you been a licensed gunsmith?