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Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6024725 11/12/15 05:42 AM
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Mike Honcho Offline
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There is a smith in brazoria county that is a mauser expert. He gives you a notebook with photos and a written summary of each step in building the rifle its art. I can vouch for his work, ive fired a number of his mauser builds and all lights out accuarte. If your interested ill get ya his info.


“Two things that define an individual what you do when you have everything, and what you do when you have nothing."


Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6026177 11/12/15 10:45 PM
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This post is full of incorrect information . 8mm 98 Mausers were NOT designed to shoot heavier bullets . They were made to shoot [ rifling twist rate ] 154 grain bullets . The twist and barrels never changed . There was never a 1896 Mauser made in 8mm . No military Mausers ever had a .318 groove bore . The 198 grain bullet load was made for machine guns . US made 8mm ammo does not shoot well in Military Mausers . Barrel length has nothing to do with bullet weight , only twist rate . Most 7mm Military Mausers have a .288 + groove barrel and will not shoot .284 dia boattail bullets well . They are made for long bearing surface bullets .

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6026230 11/12/15 11:07 PM
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Y'all just got served

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: diablodog] #6026307 11/12/15 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: diablodog
This post is full of incorrect information . 8mm 98 Mausers were NOT designed to shoot heavier bullets . They were made to shoot [ rifling twist rate ] 154 grain bullets . The twist and barrels never changed . There was never a 1896 Mauser made in 8mm . No military Mausers ever had a .318 groove bore . The 198 grain bullet load was made for machine guns . US made 8mm ammo does not shoot well in Military Mausers . Barrel length has nothing to do with bullet weight , only twist rate . Most 7mm Military Mausers have a .288 + groove barrel and will not shoot .284 dia boattail bullets well . They are made for long bearing surface bullets .


1905 there was a change from the Model 88/Gew98 using a .318 225gr bullet to a .323 152gr bullet, but around 1934 it changed again. The standard 7.92×57mm Mauser during WWII was a 197gr bullet for the 98k rifle with 23.6 inch barrel. WWII Machine gun ammo I think mostly had a steel core and was the lighter 150something gr ammo.

http://www.mausershooters.org/k98k/8_8mm.html
"The typical velocity of this round is 2500 fps with a projectile weight of 197.5 grains. Between 80% and 90% of all the 7,92x57mm ammunition produced was of the sS type(sS for Schweres Spitzgeschoss meaning heavy pointed bullet).

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: ChadTRG42] #6026392 11/13/15 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
I have a custom 243 Win made on a Mauser 98 action in the shop now I am working on loads for. I have shot several Mausers before. This rifle shoots well, but the trigger is very odd. It is tuned and lightened up. But when I fire it, it has a squishy, soft feel to it, with a long creep at the end. And the main thing I notice is the lag time from when the trigger is pulled to the actual firing of the round. Most rifles you pull the trigger and it goes bang at the same time without a delay. This rifle has a slight lag time or delay to it. The trigger is depressed and the firing pin goes forward, but it takes a slit second for the round to go off. I noticed this big time on this rifle. It actually made it more difficult to shoot well, for a custom precision rifle, that is.


That's a weird sounding trigger. Most stock Mauser triggers are two-stage (and heavy), but once the travel is taken up they are usually crisp.

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6027094 11/13/15 01:40 PM
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John , you have bits of truth and most of it is mixed up . The Germans started out with a .3188 dia BULLET [ not bore ] , developed a .321 dia 154 grain BULLET in 1897 [ the bore size and twist rate was standardized then and never changed , meaning the rifles were NOT designed to shoot heaver bullets ] , made it general issue in 1907 , but old stocks of ammo were still used . The Ss 198 was developed in 1905 for machine guns , it was standardized in 1934 as the Germans set their squad up around the machine gun and wanted just one type of ammo . The Ss was NOT the standard ammo of WWII , in 1940 they standardized with the 175 grain iron cored bullet [ not 150 ] for all ground weapons . my information is from real German rifles , real ammo , and original German military documents dating from 1886 , not what I read on the internet . I have all this sitting here in my collection and can look at and measure all of it .

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: Brother in-law] #6027504 11/13/15 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: Brother in-law
Y'all just got served


I know, right? I feel justifiably chastised. grin


Originally Posted By: theserxtremedays
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers
Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6027877 11/13/15 08:24 PM
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During the Second World War (1939-1945) the German military changed the 7,9Smm load back in order to utilize a heavy projectile. The new 197 grain pointed projectile featured a streamlined boattail having a BC of .547 over the previous 154 grain projectile’s BC of .321. Chamber pressure was around 45,500psi over the previous loading’s pressure of 42,700psi with the 197 grain bullet giving a muzzle velocity of 2500fps in the K98k. The new load was re-designated 7,9mmsS, sS standing for schweres Spitzgeschoss meaning heavy pointed bullet. This load produced more desirable extended range performance while producing deeper penetration through light armor in comparison to the 154 grain loading.

Over 80% of the 7,9mm ammunition used by the Germans in the K98k rifle and machine guns during the Second World War was of the 7,9mmsS type loading followed by dedicated armor piercing versions of a similar weight. When the US medical ballistics Department sent forensic researchers to study K98K rifles as found on the battle fields of Europe, most recovered rifles had clips of the 7,9mmsS load in their magazines. It should be noted here that the initial change from the 7,9mmS load to the 7,9mmsS load must have required the replacement of all existing rifle sights as the two loads shot to completely different points of impact. Most surplus K98k rifles are indeed sight regulated for the heavier load.

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/8x57JS+Mauser.html

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: Mike Honcho] #6030385 11/15/15 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: jorge
There is a smith in brazoria county that is a mauser expert. He gives you a notebook with photos and a written summary of each step in building the rifle its art. I can vouch for his work, ive fired a number of his mauser builds and all lights out accuarte. If your interested ill get ya his info.


I'll take that info. I'm in Brazoria county

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: TFF Caribou] #6030449 11/15/15 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tff caribou
Originally Posted By: tth_40
Domestically made ammo is generally downloaded and underpowered in 8mm Mauser due to folks shooting the .323" bullet in a '96 action .318 bore. Your '98 is .323" and will do best with full power European loads (Sellier and Bellot, etc.) in 190-200 grain loads. And those rifles can REALLY shine if you handload for them (the ones I have are SHOOTERS with a full power load behind a Sierra Pro Hunter 185 grain .323 bullet.) DON'T write it off after shooting it with just one load.


I know you were addressing my post, but I shot both sellier and bellot and coreloct in my 1893 mauser
tried S&B, could not get a decent group, ck'd bullets, powder was consistent, bullet weight varied, imo, s&b is trash


hold on Newt, we got a runaway
Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6030660 11/15/15 06:58 PM
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Sorry John , but the link article has about everything in it wrong , it even contradicts most of the stuff you said in your first post. The German Military states the old stock 198 Ss ammo was to be used for training only starting in 1939 , to save on lead . It was replaced with the iron cored SMK 175 ammo . The German G-88 never used a .318 bore . I have 50 with original barrels and none are .318 . The German military testing also states the Bore size was .321 . SO you are saying all the German Military documents are incorrect ? All the original examples of ammo and rifles are wrong ? How many of the original German documents have YOU read ? Do YOU have a degree in imperial German from a German university ? Do YOU have a pile of original ammo ? Do all of YOUR 100's of German military rifles have bore sizes that are different ?.

Last edited by diablodog; 11/15/15 07:04 PM. Reason: add
Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6031477 11/16/15 02:28 AM
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diablodog,
I never said anything had a .318 bore. I mentioned the change from .318 bullet to .323. My gun library is boxed up at the moment so I mostly generalized from memory and presented an online source that was similar and then a second online source said what they were finding in the rifles picked up off the battlefields. It was a direct quote, not my words. I understand and know there was not a .318 bore on these rifles. More likely a bore around .3118 land and.3215 groove as you know. I do have a collection of over 100 military rifles and have slugged a few bores. Actually I do have a couple 88 Commission rifles in my collection that have around .309/.318 or smaller bores and several like new spare replacement barrels with same, but they are Czech made Ecuador Contract barrels. And I have a Hanyang 88 that measures out to .324, but those of course are not german barrels and not any more relevant to the ops question than the bore diameter of 88s is. What I do know is most of my 8mm mausers of any country shoot more accurate with the longer heavier bullets than light ones. If the ops mauser is military used or a wartime mauser it probably has some wear or throat erosion. So no matter if his rifle was originally designed or intended to shoot the heavier bullet or not, before rebarreling I would still try the heavier longer bullet to shorten that jump to the rifling to see if that helps.

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6031919 11/16/15 01:12 PM
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The article in the link you put up said they had .318 bores . Why did you post the link then ? The articles in the two links you posted are both full of incorrect information and are the perfect example of why it never seems to go away . Of the over 1200 German 8mm rifles a friend and I have tested , over 90% shoot the 150 grain bullet best . The long throat seems to make no difference . I have scored 1000's of targets shot in military rifle matches for about 20 years . The 150 has done best in most all of the other shooter's rifles also . I have seen a lot of back to back , sub one inch, 100 yard, 5-shot groups done with the 150 bullet . Are you REALLY shooting better that 1 inch 5-shots [ with iron sights yet ] , with other weight bullets ?

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6032854 11/16/15 08:15 PM
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I will correct myself in that the Original 1888 Commission rifle design had .311 Land and Groove diameter .318 which was short lived before changing to the .321 after trials and problems using the first Patrone 7.9 J ammo having the same bore dimensions, but I doubt a rifle with those original barrels can be found. It is an generalized article, not a book and impossible, nor practical to break down every change in history on the rifles and cartridges without writing a volume of books. I quoted it as a reference to bullet weight used. I have shot open sight and scoped vintage military matches, but I used Swedish Mausers, so I can't help you there. Much of my military rifle collection falls into ones that are well used, beat to hell, been through a war. Most I sight in from my stash of several countries surplus ammo or semi reloads made from surplus by pulling bullets and loading a bullet of my choice. Few of my rifles would be suitable for your typical match rifle. Others are too valuable to risk firing anything other than reduced reloads. My recommendation to try the heavier ammo is not because of the long throat in those chambers, but the added wear to them from heavy use. Which is why I suspect could be one reason why I have had better luck with the longer heavier ammo in most of my rifles. The most recent 196gr Yugo surplus for example is not bad at all in the accuracy department IMHO. So yes, I have had better accuracy with the heavier ammo in my original configuration war time to post war 8mm Mausers. As he describes his rifle, it not going to win matches with any ammo IMO. But I have seen enough difference with some rifles with different bullets be it surpulus, commercial, or full reloads. I sure would at least try a different or heavier ammo before going to the expense of a re barrel provided he just wants his surplus military turned sporter to be a dependable hunting rifle. Could you not agree. All it would cost him is a box of ammo to try or two boxes to try both extremes. Norma makes a 160 and a 196. I would stay away from american commercial without measuring the bullets. Remington used to use a smaller diameter bullet than .323 in their corelocks I know and may still. I don't have any to measure. And american tends to be under loaded. One last thing, I noticed he mentioned the pattern stringing left. Finger placement could be a contributing factor as well.

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6033187 11/16/15 10:57 PM
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The Gew-88 NEVER had a .318 groove barrel . The German documents show the first barrel at .314 - .321 with the rifling .00375 deep per groove , this was used for the first year , All my 1889 rifles with the original barrels measure .314 - .321 . They will be marked by the Germans as 7.96 or 7.97 , that is .314 . Due to quick wear out , they changed to .311 - .321 in early 1890 . The German documents state they increased the rifling depth to .005 per groove. Those barrels are marked 7.90 , 7.91 or 7.92 , that is .311 . Look at rifles ,look at original documents, do the math , it all adds up . There is no such thing a J ammo ,barrels or J anything . J is never used in any German military documents ,test reports or is it on any German military ammo boxes . The original ammo was known as P-88 . Now what source are you using ? An article ? Back to the original problem with the gun shooting poorly , Yes it is probably the ammo being used . Due to all the poor information being passed around , nobody seems to know how to make good ammo for these rifles .

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6033464 11/17/15 12:53 AM
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Correct. The letter J came about over time due to the typeface the Prussians were using looking like a J. The J is actually not a J, but an 'I' for 'Infanterie'. Us Americans stuck with J to this day. And I am sure you know that. The reference to the orginal bore I have I believe was during development. General Xylander declared the design finished in March 1888, but field trials did not end until November and rifles did not start reaching some troops until October the next year. I seriously doubt any of those trials barrels went with them. And I do agree most every book out there has misinformation, but what was in the original documents as to use was not always what was used on the ground either, so I do and will keep an open mind. If you have a copy of the original GPK document related to the release of the rifle, especially if it has any of the original rifle or Geschoss 88 ammo specs, I would love to have a copy for my collection if you can scan it for me?

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6033928 11/17/15 03:32 AM
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The letter I was also never used by the German military for ammo or bore sizes . They never used a .318 groove barrel with a .3188 dia bullet , they knew better . The same companies that made Gew-88 rifles had been making other 8mm rifles .None of those used a groove dia bullet . No European Military rifle ever used a groove size bullet with the old roundnose bullets . The whole .318 bore thing started in the 1960's when someone misinterpreted what a German document said . The document said the RIFLING DEPTH was increased by .003 . Since all the later rifles were .321 , they subtracted .003 and got .318 . But that is not right . The Germans made the bore hole smaller from .314 to .311 , the SAME .321 groove . That is how they got the extra .003 . Making the bore hole smaller is quick and cheap , you do not have to replace all your expensive rifling tooling . That is why there was never a .318 groove . They never used .318 tooling . Also I do not think I want to give away years of research , if you go to Germany the original documents are still there for you to copy . I hope you enjoyed the "new" information, really .

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6033931 11/17/15 03:33 AM
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Are you out of Amarillo ?

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: diablodog] #6034141 11/17/15 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: diablodog
The same companies that made Gew-88 rifles had been making other 8mm rifles


Huh?
One focus of my collection is pre 1899 centerfire military rifles. I could be wrong, but I only know of one 8mm, the French Lebel Model 1886 that came before the Commission rifle. To counter the French was the reason for Prussia putting together a group of officers from the rifle testing commission to design a new rifle and smokeless cartridge to replace the 71/84. None of the French rifles of course were made by Amberg, Loewe, Steyr, or Haenel.

BTW one good reference is Ludwig Olson. He talks about the bullet weight increased to 198 grains, reshaped to include a boattail and given the designation of 7.9mm sS (sS=schweres Spitzgeschoss) and does state that the sS round was originally intended to be used only in machineguns as you say. But his research then shows on the eve of World War 2, the sS was made standard for both rifles and machineguns. Then the 7.9mm SmE (Spitzgeschoss mit Eisenkern) and SmE (lang) (Spitzgeschoss mit Eisenkern lang) steel core bullets also as used during World War 2 with bullet weights of 178 grains and 162 grains due to a shortage of lead. But I would see that as a ersatz situation, not the standard.

You get the last word. Been a fun dialog. Back to work and then a few days hunting for me. I'm sure it was a lot more information than THETEXAN was looking for. cheers

Re: Re barrel 98 mauser [Re: THETEXAN] #6034297 11/17/15 01:23 PM
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The M-1888 Mannlicher in 8x50r , the 1886 Kropatschek in 8x60r , and the first versions of the M-1889 the 1888 Schmidt- Rubin was in 8mm . All used undersized bullets . All made by the above companies [ not Amberg ], all owed by the same group . Olson is clearly wrong , in 1932 -34 the Germans had a massive resighting of program of all their rifles for Ss ammo . That is why K98K rifles have a changeable sight base . There where several versions of the SM bullets , the standard rifle bullet was a compressed sintered iron core , it was designed to be close enough to the Ss so they could keep the sights on the rifles . German military records clearly state that Ss ammo was to be kept for training use . That is why there is so much of 1930's dated ammo still around . Show me some 1940's dated Ss ammo .

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