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FL sizing .223 #6017740 11/08/15 04:11 PM
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DStroud Offline OP
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This question is mainly directed at Chad but I thought I would put it out here just in case it may help someone else.
I am once again processing a large quantity of .223 ammo mainly for 3 Gun. I cleaned and decapped about 10,000 pieces and now I am running it thru a Hornady swager ( new one that runs on the press)to remove primer pocket crimps. I did a few hundred on the swager then sized and primed just to make sure I had it set correctly and all worked fine.
Now to the question and this is not a new issue to me just that I have once again tried to solve it but thought there has to be an easier solution.
When I run my brass thru the Hornady L-N-L progressive using a Redding FL die set to bottom out on my plate in the machine 80-90% of my brass measures out with good headspace. But there is always some portion of brass that the headspace is .003 to .008 too long. Well in a bolt gun that is OK as you have the camming action to force it closed in most instances. AR's are a whole different animal and we all know the fun of a locked up action.
MY solution has been to check each and every piece(slow process) and sort out the longer ones and resize in a single stage press using a SB die I bought but never use except for this. OH and before you say just put the SB die it in the Progressive I have put 3 different SB and standard dies in there and all do about the same...infact the SB die makes is worse as it seems to push more brass into the shoulder area as it squeezes the lower portion of the brass smaller( my theory).
My assumption is the flex in the progressive on the more fatigued brass allows this. One interesting thing I noted today was after I sorted out the longer one I installed the SB die in the Forster press bottomed out and it took out about 1/2 the excessive length so I swapped over to the RC press and with a light cam-over It took all to a .004 set back off 0 on the tool.
Since there are folks such as Chad thet process tons of this stuff my question is how do you size to get ALL brass set back to minimum on every piece running progressive presses. Hoping there is a simple easy solution that I am just overlooking or have not considered.
Thanks in advance for any ideas.

PS just noticed I put this in the Firearms instead of reloading. I am OK with either(same folks) but if the Mods want to move thats fine too

Last edited by DStroud; 11/08/15 04:24 PM.

"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."

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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6017887 11/08/15 06:59 PM
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Man...I'm still coping with the thought of doing 10,000 pieces of brass. Wow!


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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: 603Country] #6017904 11/08/15 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: 603Country
Man...I'm still coping with the thought of doing 10,000 pieces of brass. Wow!


Thankfully my son who shoots most of it decap's most of it and cleans a lot as well. I gave him a stainless media cleaning system for Christmas ( hint to help) grin and I have one as well. So over the last few months we have got almost half the brass cleaned just piddling around on occassion. I am not sure how many pieces we still have to clean but there are a LOT.

We cleaned and sized trimmed and primed 2000 the day after Christmas just to get ready for this past year but have not done anything except decap and clean since. I was actually waiting for the Hornady swager before we cranked back up. It's better than using the the RCBS/Dillon I was using.


"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."

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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6017918 11/08/15 07:42 PM
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My bet is Chad is going to say to anneal the brass to get it to all headspace the same.

But I'd like to know his answer as well.


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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: J.G.] #6017931 11/08/15 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
My bet is Chad is going to say to anneal the brass to get it to all headspace the same.

But I'd like to know his answer as well.


Thats not really worth doing as most of this brass is blaster ammo that may or may not be recovered in comp.
It's probably going to involve running the brass thru two dies is what I am thinking.


"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."

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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6017962 11/08/15 08:21 PM
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My guess is that the expander is dragging on the necks.
You can lube the inside of the case necks, and do a short tumble after sizing to remove the lube. Or
Since the cases are already deprimed, remove the entire pin/expander assembly from the die. Boattail bullets should still seat easily. A quick turn or two, in your case x10,000, with an inside deburring tool will create a slight bevel and allow seating of flat base bullets.

Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6018436 11/09/15 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted By: DStroud
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
My bet is Chad is going to say to anneal the brass to get it to all headspace the same.

But I'd like to know his answer as well.


Thats not really worth doing as most of this brass is blaster ammo that may or may not be recovered in comp.
It's probably going to involve running the brass thru two dies is what I am thinking.


Sort it out into a new pile. Or, have you tried running it through the same die again? Size it, rotate 90 to 180, size it again, I've done this before. Just spit-balling here.


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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6018460 11/09/15 02:46 AM
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I have already fixed all that I have sized so far about 300 pieces today. I ran them thru a RCBS SB die on the Rockchucker.
Since I had already primed them all I just removed the decapping pin from the expander spindle.

Now I am back to the grind of running all the brass thru the Swager.... probably have about 1000 done 9000+ to go. eek2

Last edited by DStroud; 11/09/15 02:49 AM.

"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."

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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6018595 11/09/15 03:53 AM
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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6018972 11/09/15 02:32 PM
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Good post! I have also had this problem with 223 and 300 blk out sizing brass on my Dillon 1050's. So what's happening is a standard FL die can not get every case fully sized on the progressive press. I have also seen the shoulders too far forward after a standard FL sizing on progressive presses. I'll check the brass in my rifles and chamber check gauges and see how much more sizing I need to do at the shoulder. Usually it is about .004" to .006" additional shoulder bump needed to be within spec. To solve this problem, I called my Dad up and went to their house to use his grinding wheel. I fire up the grinding wheel, and carefully and evenly take off .004" to .006" on the bottom of the die! This gives you enough bump to get ALL your brass sized to minimum for 100% chambering.

Also, there are companies that offer brass processing services. When they call me, I specifically ask how they size their brass, and what press. Then I ask what dies they run, and tell them this problem that DStroud is having. They tell me their brass is better and 100% good, so I ask for a free sample. They mail it to me, and I'll measure the head spacing and case wall dimensions. Almost all of them get a call from me telling them that not all their brass is to spec, and they assure me it is. I then spit out head space numbers telling them that X amount of cases out of the 50 I measured will not chamber in my 223's or in my head space gauges. Customers want 100% reliable ammo, 100% of the time. So, X amount out bad one's of 40 or 50 measured is far off from 100%.


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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6019147 11/09/15 03:37 PM
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thanks for the reply Chad.
I knew that I could not be the only person who has encountered this issue. I am going to try one more thing but thinking I will possibly contact one of the die makers and ask if they make a .223 die that's about .005 short or explain my problem and see what they say.


"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."

Jack O'Connor 1963
Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6019221 11/09/15 04:09 PM
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Your gonna have a huge popeye arm on one side and a little gimpy one on the other by time you finish all that! roflmao


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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: redchevy] #6019247 11/09/15 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: redchevy
Your gonna have a huge popeye arm on one side and a little gimpy one on the other by time you finish all that! roflmao


My wife did say I was walking kinda crooked this morning... cool


"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."

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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6019264 11/09/15 04:29 PM
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Shoot, it's normal occurrence to crank out 1K rounds or more on a daily basis around here! But, I do HATE running my 223 sizing when we do a big run. I normally do about 5K pieces at a time for my 223 subs.


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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6019285 11/09/15 04:37 PM
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But why is this happening. If the die is set correctly where is the space coming from? Is it just tolerances stack?

Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6019309 11/09/15 04:46 PM
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1- There is some slop in the press/shell holder (not much, but a little). Plus, there are differences in the various brass brands and how each takes a sizing. Plus, you can not put the sizing pressure on a progressive press like you can on a single stage press.


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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6019692 11/09/15 08:01 PM
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My thoughts are that most of the variance is due to some brass being brittle and springing back but some could be occuring from the opposite... brass being soft can be pulled upward by the exapnder passing thru the neck.
Another example of variance is when I used the Small base die placed in the Forster press it only took the brass from .005 over only down .002 which still left it .003 long on headspace even with a light camover. THEN same die placed in the RCBS Rockchucker took it to minus .003 which was where I wanted to end up.
The answer I feel certain is the fact it was a shellholder and that shellholder may allow the brass to be pushed into the die a few thousants more?

Anyway I spoke with Hornady and they suggested I try tightening down or turning down a 1/4 to 1/2 turn to give my press a camover with my progressive which I have been reluctant to do and I was not sure that was wise. Worth a try anyway and since they say it won't hurt it.
Update
Turned the die down another 1/4 turn then using brass that measured 0 on my RCBS gauge I sized a few.... came out .005 longer??? confused2
Turned the die down another 1/4 turn (now I am getting firm camover)repeated the test and reran the pieces that were now too long and all came out .002 under zero(zero by the way is .223 SAAMI spec)
Then I ran another bunch and all came out .001-.002 under so looks promising.

Last edited by DStroud; 11/10/15 12:09 AM.

"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."

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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6020203 11/10/15 12:50 AM
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Heck I thought you were camming over this whole time.


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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: J.G.] #6020310 11/10/15 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Heck I thought you were camming over this whole time.


I do setup for a slight camover most of the time with single stage presses but with the progressive I just screwed the die down until it made contact. I wrongly felt like the camover would just tilt the plate?? From reading other peoples post at various websites and talking with friends who run progressives(mainly Dillons) they will tilt slightly.


"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."

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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6020405 11/10/15 02:35 AM
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I've not used a progressive, but when I used an RCBS turret press I set dies to camover. Even with a slight tilt I built that into the cam over. So when the ram hit the turret, tilt the turret, then cam over the handle. Made for very consistent ammo.

That seem similiar to what you have going on now.


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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6020650 11/10/15 04:33 AM
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Pretty much. Hard to explain but setting up a die on this particular progressive is mainly by feel as you cannot see well exactly where you are in relation to the plate once you get close.
After adjusting to get a pretty stiff camover I just resized 500 pieces and spot checked about 50 and all measured out good. That's a definite improvment so maybe it was that simple as I justed needed a die adjustment.


"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."

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Re: FL sizing .223 [Re: DStroud] #6020937 11/10/15 02:09 PM
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On a progressive machine, you MUST cam over and get the full movement of each station for it to work correctly. Single stage presses, like my Redding T7, I will set up to almost cam over. I like to have max force on the die when sizing, which is just before cam over on a single stage.


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