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neck dies vs fl dies #6011430 11/05/15 01:20 AM
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Relating to bolt action, is neck dies better then f/l? The brass would not be mix between rifles. One is primary hunting and other I intend to learn precision shooting. Does caliber make any difference?


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6011513 11/05/15 02:06 AM
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If you don't have either, buy the FL dies. You will need them sooner or later.

As for precision or long range shooting, I'll leave that to the guys on here that do that. I hope you have a fat checkbook.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6011526 11/05/15 02:16 AM
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You actually need both types of dies for a bolt action. Neck sizing dies only size the neck which is great for getting the best accuracy from your rifle,but if you don't full length size the case after every 3-5 firings you can have problems with having a hard to close bolt or case extraction issues from the case be growing in the chamber.
The shoulder of the case needs to be bumped back a couple thousandths,and that's what causes most hard to close bolt problems.

Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6011636 11/05/15 02:56 AM
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Set up a fl die to bump the shoulders back .001-.002 and you get the best of both worlds.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: dee] #6011675 11/05/15 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: dee
Set up a fl die to bump the shoulders back .001-.002 and you get the best of both worlds.


Agreed...a lot of the benchrest guys have even went to that method.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6013554 11/06/15 02:09 AM
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FL sizing does will resize the neck too...

Bushing FL dies will allow you to easily adjust the neck tension to various brass thickness and bullets. I use bushings when I can.

Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: dee] #6013580 11/06/15 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: dee
Set up a fl die to bump the shoulders back .001-.002 and you get the best of both worlds.


This.

Neck sizing only can lead to brass that won't chamber and/ or brass that can jam in the chamber after firing. It is a sickening thing to stand a rifle up on its' butt and stomp on the bolt handle to eject brass. Done it and seen it done.

Buy FL dies for every rifle as well as a Hornady headspace gauge to measure to the shoulder of all brass for each rifle. Set the FL die to push the shoulders back .002" You get all the velocity possible from the powder charge, you are not over-working your brass (which yeilds longer brass life) and you are getting brass that will always chamber and always eject without fuss.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6013669 11/06/15 03:01 AM
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FL dies are a must have, but you CANNOT just bump shoulders back a thousandth or two without working the brass. Before the die makes contact with the shoulder, the shoulder will flow forward due to the fact that the case body is being reduced to some extent. This probably happens a lot less with cartridges having more body taper and a lot MORE with cartridges having very little body taper. Nonetheless, your typical .223, .25-06, .270 etc. will be subject to this phenomenon. And there's nothing you can do about it unless you acquire neck dies and body dies.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: RiverRider] #6014031 11/06/15 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
And there's nothing you can do about it unless you acquire neck dies and body dies.


I use 3 die sets a bushing neck die then run stuff through a body die after. It works very well and I'm in the process of changing all of my rifle dies to that system.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6014217 11/06/15 02:21 PM
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By now the OP should be very confused.

Neck die - it can be used, if max loads aren't shot, for a number of reloads. The number varies with several factors. At some point, the reloads will become harder to chamber and the brass will need to be reduced in size with a Full Length Die. Alternately, a Body Die can be used at this point. Either will work. The objective is to resize the case enough but not too much, hence the suggestions about bumping the shoulder back slightly.

If the OP buys a Body Die, he can then continue with the neck die until the case body again needs resizing. Also, if desired, the Body Die and Neck Die can both be used at each reload of the brass. It isn't normally necessary to do that, however.

Full Length Die - it comes in a standard non-bushing type or a bushing type. For the average Joe Reloader, get the standard non-bushing type. With a FL die, you can neck size (partial resizing is the term) by not running the brass fully into the die (google it), or the die can be used as most suggest, which is to run the brass into the die enough to set back the case shoulder the desired small amount. That amount varies with the particular die, in that I have a die (220 Swift) that won't set the shoulder back more than just barely enough, and I have a die (260) that will set the shoulder back too much if you set it up to max size the brass.

Alternate approach - buy the Lee Collet Die and a Redding Body Die. Use the Lee Collet Die at each reload and the Body Die when the reloads begin to be harder to chamber. Again, use the body die to set that case shoulder back enough, but not too much.

Personal experience - i partial resized for many years for my two rifles, a 220 and a 270. It worked great. But then I bought more rifles in other calibers, ones that didn't have the case body taper of the 220 and 270, and partial resizing didn't work so well. The shoulders of the cases hit the inside of the dies and were 'squeezed', which forced the shoulder forward and caused hard clambering. Took me a while to figure that out. So, today I use the Lee Collet Die on some calibers (and the Body Die), and on some calibers I use a FL die that's set for the small shoulder bump, or setback. I have retired the Standard Neck Dies and am not presently using the Bushing Dies. The Bushing Dies 'care' what the case neck wall thickness is, whereas the Lee Collet Die does not.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6014228 11/06/15 02:25 PM
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Using a fl die to partially nk side causes issues elsewhere. German Salazar did a very good write up on it and other aspects of reloading on his blog theriflemansjournal.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6014369 11/06/15 03:29 PM
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For a serious competitive shooter like Mr Salazar, partial resizing won't make him happy. For my needs, which were and are paper punching and hunting, it worked fine for me for probably 15 years or more. I shot that 220 a lot, and grouping was excellent (5 into 1/4 inch at times), so to say that Partial Resizing won't work or won't work well is not accurate (no pun intended). But, keep in mind that my good results were only with tapered cases. It didn't work well with my 260, 308, or 223.

I don't Partial Resize these days, but might give it a try again with the 220 one of these days. I think I need to find out for myself if I'm really gaining anything accuracy-wise from the Lee Collet Die or the FL die with shoulder bump. Maybe after hunting season, when I'm bored.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6014459 11/06/15 04:19 PM
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It was actually causing stretch or growth in areas of the case that would cause issues. If you were die hard about nk sizing he said to buy a dedicated die. I would link the article but his blog won't show up anymore.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6014615 11/06/15 05:55 PM
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That's interesting, but I can't see how neck sizing with a FL die will cause anything to happen that won't happen with a regular NK die. Still neck sizing a fireformed case, either way. And the 220 I mentioned shot partial resized Norma cases many many times before I replaced the brass, and I had zero problems. The only unexpected thing to happen was that the case neck wall thinned over time. I had read that with the 220 case, brass would flow toward the neck and cause the neck wall to thicken. The opposite happened. Odd.

Probably best that a new reloader just buys a standard, non-bushing FL die and go with that, using it as a FL die and not partial resizing.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: 603Country] #6014637 11/06/15 06:05 PM
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I don't understand what yall are saying is the problem with using a FL bushing die and setting it in the press to ultimately bump the shoulders back .002". When my brass has worn out is has been due to loose primer pockets only. Up until then it shot like a champ. It was annealed every 2 or 3 loadings, and now that I have my own machine I am trying to decide how often to anneal. It is quite the chore when two of the rifles have 500 pieces of brass each.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6014876 11/06/15 08:16 PM
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I don't know about a FL bushing die, but conventional FL dies will cause forward shoulder movement just before they contact inside the die. Maybe the bushing type will do the same thing. Try backing the die out of the press about an eighth of s turn and then run a fired case through it and then chamber the case in your rifle. You'll notice it gets VERY snug.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6014894 11/06/15 08:25 PM
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I guess I should wrap that up by pointing out that this is why necks lengthen and the case thins down near the web.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: RiverRider] #6014971 11/06/15 09:13 PM
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I can grasp what you mean with the brass lengthening at the shoulder. But if you have the die to push shoulders back then you've counter acted that lenghtening at the shoulder. That brass has to come from and go somwhere, yes. So my understanding is it comes from down low on the case near the head, and goes to the neck. Yes bushing dies are supposed to maintain an O.D., thereby mainting an I.D. which keeps neck tension on the bullet consistent. I've got bushing FL dies and standard FL dies, both types make the cases grow each time the case is fired and run through the die, the distance from case head to shoulder is always the same. What changes, that I can see, is case length. What I suspect changes, that I cannot see is case wall thickness down near the case head.

Right?


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6014984 11/06/15 09:27 PM
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Yes, that is how I perceive it. You do push the shoulder neck where you want it, but it is working the brass and you probably have to trim more often as a result.

I used to use the partial FL technique, but I've gone over to collet neck dies and body dies. I'll only FL size when I have to.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6015001 11/06/15 09:37 PM
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It doesn't matter to me which type FL dies I use, bushing type or standard. Just have more than one bushing size if you get new brass or a different make of brass. My most recent batch of Lapua 223 brass had thick necks, and needed a bigger bushing. That's why I made the point that the Lee Collet Die doesn't care how thick case neck walls are. That's good, but then you need a Body Die when you want to set the shoulder back a touch.

Regarding the problem of the die walls pushing the shoulder forward when the case comes into contact, that's why I quit partial resizing. That was an unexpected problem when I started loading for cases with little body taper. I had never noticed that as a problem when I was loading only for the 270 and 220, both of which have a tapered case. I had planned to at least try to partial resize for the 260, but I quickly found that it wasn't the way to go. I have to admit that I partial resized for the 220 for so long that I just had assumed that the process would work for any case. Wrong. Who knew...


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6015346 11/07/15 01:50 AM
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I like the collet dies for the same reasons. I wish it was available for .264 and I am using a Redding neck die for it, and partial FL for 6-284.

I hope OP is getting something out of all this!


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6015484 11/07/15 03:11 AM
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I've been reloading for almost 30 yrs now, but just recently went to using the Lee collet neck sizing die. I've been impressed with the decreased runout numbers I'm seeing by neck sizing as opposed to FL sizing every time. I can see where bumping the shoulders back .002 ever so often could be beneficial as well.

Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6015777 11/07/15 12:27 PM
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Earlier this summer I ran a small test of my own of 'regular' dies vs the Lee collets in the same caliber (243). 5-shot group with my RCBS dies was .75, 5-shots with the collet was .4.

I think, from that little test, that Jgraider is correct on the run out.

Found a Lee .264 neck die. I'll play with that on my 264 WM and see.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6016988 11/08/15 01:14 AM
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You bet I am, that's why I ask questions. After I absorb these posts and feel comfortable about the info I'll get into the bumping shoulders. But that will be another time, I have a long way to go before I can join in and feel I know what I'm saying. Thank you to all who has offered info, that is the biggest reason I've joined this forum.


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Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99] #6017644 11/08/15 03:21 PM
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BassCat, when and if you are reloading with FL dies, then you are already "bumping shoulders". All that's left is for you to do is to determine just how much bump is the right amount. It isn't as tough as all the verbiage might lead you to believe.

Last edited by 603Country; 11/08/15 03:24 PM.

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