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Max Online: 16728 @ 03/25/12 08:51 AM
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#6011430 - 11/04/15 07:20 PM neck dies vs fl dies
BassCat'99 Online   happy
Tracker

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 921
Loc: Stratford Texas
Relating to bolt action, is neck dies better then f/l? The brass would not be mix between rifles. One is primary hunting and other I intend to learn precision shooting. Does caliber make any difference?
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#6011513 - 11/04/15 08:06 PM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99]
603Country Online   content
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 07/03/12
Posts: 4875
Loc: Central Texas
If you don't have either, buy the FL dies. You will need them sooner or later.

As for precision or long range shooting, I'll leave that to the guys on here that do that. I hope you have a fat checkbook.

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#6011526 - 11/04/15 08:16 PM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99]
Txhillbilly Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 08/14/15
Posts: 441
Loc: Johnson County
You actually need both types of dies for a bolt action. Neck sizing dies only size the neck which is great for getting the best accuracy from your rifle,but if you don't full length size the case after every 3-5 firings you can have problems with having a hard to close bolt or case extraction issues from the case be growing in the chamber.
The shoulder of the case needs to be bumped back a couple thousandths,and that's what causes most hard to close bolt problems.

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#6011636 - 11/04/15 08:56 PM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99]
dee Online   content
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Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 4665
Loc: Red River way
Set up a fl die to bump the shoulders back .001-.002 and you get the best of both worlds.
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#6011675 - 11/04/15 09:07 PM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: dee]
Judd Online   content


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 10761
Loc: Sachse, TX
Originally Posted By: dee
Set up a fl die to bump the shoulders back .001-.002 and you get the best of both worlds.


Agreed...a lot of the benchrest guys have even went to that method.
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#6013554 - 11/05/15 08:09 PM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99]
Dien Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 08/16/12
Posts: 391
Loc: Grand Prairie
FL sizing does will resize the neck too...

Bushing FL dies will allow you to easily adjust the neck tension to various brass thickness and bullets. I use bushings when I can.

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#6013580 - 11/05/15 08:22 PM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: dee]
FiremanJG Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: dee
Set up a fl die to bump the shoulders back .001-.002 and you get the best of both worlds.


This.

Neck sizing only can lead to brass that won't chamber and/ or brass that can jam in the chamber after firing. It is a sickening thing to stand a rifle up on its' butt and stomp on the bolt handle to eject brass. Done it and seen it done.

Buy FL dies for every rifle as well as a Hornady headspace gauge to measure to the shoulder of all brass for each rifle. Set the FL die to push the shoulders back .002" You get all the velocity possible from the powder charge, you are not over-working your brass (which yeilds longer brass life) and you are getting brass that will always chamber and always eject without fuss.
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#6013669 - 11/05/15 09:01 PM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99]
RiverRider Online   content
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 6226
Loc: Wise Co.
FL dies are a must have, but you CANNOT just bump shoulders back a thousandth or two without working the brass. Before the die makes contact with the shoulder, the shoulder will flow forward due to the fact that the case body is being reduced to some extent. This probably happens a lot less with cartridges having more body taper and a lot MORE with cartridges having very little body taper. Nonetheless, your typical .223, .25-06, .270 etc. will be subject to this phenomenon. And there's nothing you can do about it unless you acquire neck dies and body dies.
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#6014031 - 11/06/15 06:34 AM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: RiverRider]
dee Online   content
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Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 4665
Loc: Red River way
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
And there's nothing you can do about it unless you acquire neck dies and body dies.


I use 3 die sets a bushing neck die then run stuff through a body die after. It works very well and I'm in the process of changing all of my rifle dies to that system.
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#6014217 - 11/06/15 08:21 AM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99]
603Country Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/12
Posts: 4875
Loc: Central Texas
By now the OP should be very confused.

Neck die - it can be used, if max loads aren't shot, for a number of reloads. The number varies with several factors. At some point, the reloads will become harder to chamber and the brass will need to be reduced in size with a Full Length Die. Alternately, a Body Die can be used at this point. Either will work. The objective is to resize the case enough but not too much, hence the suggestions about bumping the shoulder back slightly.

If the OP buys a Body Die, he can then continue with the neck die until the case body again needs resizing. Also, if desired, the Body Die and Neck Die can both be used at each reload of the brass. It isn't normally necessary to do that, however.

Full Length Die - it comes in a standard non-bushing type or a bushing type. For the average Joe Reloader, get the standard non-bushing type. With a FL die, you can neck size (partial resizing is the term) by not running the brass fully into the die (google it), or the die can be used as most suggest, which is to run the brass into the die enough to set back the case shoulder the desired small amount. That amount varies with the particular die, in that I have a die (220 Swift) that won't set the shoulder back more than just barely enough, and I have a die (260) that will set the shoulder back too much if you set it up to max size the brass.

Alternate approach - buy the Lee Collet Die and a Redding Body Die. Use the Lee Collet Die at each reload and the Body Die when the reloads begin to be harder to chamber. Again, use the body die to set that case shoulder back enough, but not too much.

Personal experience - i partial resized for many years for my two rifles, a 220 and a 270. It worked great. But then I bought more rifles in other calibers, ones that didn't have the case body taper of the 220 and 270, and partial resizing didn't work so well. The shoulders of the cases hit the inside of the dies and were 'squeezed', which forced the shoulder forward and caused hard clambering. Took me a while to figure that out. So, today I use the Lee Collet Die on some calibers (and the Body Die), and on some calibers I use a FL die that's set for the small shoulder bump, or setback. I have retired the Standard Neck Dies and am not presently using the Bushing Dies. The Bushing Dies 'care' what the case neck wall thickness is, whereas the Lee Collet Die does not.

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#6014228 - 11/06/15 08:25 AM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99]
dee Online   content
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Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 4665
Loc: Red River way
Using a fl die to partially nk side causes issues elsewhere. German Salazar did a very good write up on it and other aspects of reloading on his blog theriflemansjournal.
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#6014369 - 11/06/15 09:29 AM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99]
603Country Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/12
Posts: 4875
Loc: Central Texas
For a serious competitive shooter like Mr Salazar, partial resizing won't make him happy. For my needs, which were and are paper punching and hunting, it worked fine for me for probably 15 years or more. I shot that 220 a lot, and grouping was excellent (5 into 1/4 inch at times), so to say that Partial Resizing won't work or won't work well is not accurate (no pun intended). But, keep in mind that my good results were only with tapered cases. It didn't work well with my 260, 308, or 223.

I don't Partial Resize these days, but might give it a try again with the 220 one of these days. I think I need to find out for myself if I'm really gaining anything accuracy-wise from the Lee Collet Die or the FL die with shoulder bump. Maybe after hunting season, when I'm bored.

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#6014459 - 11/06/15 10:19 AM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99]
dee Online   content
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Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 4665
Loc: Red River way
It was actually causing stretch or growth in areas of the case that would cause issues. If you were die hard about nk sizing he said to buy a dedicated die. I would link the article but his blog won't show up anymore.
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#6014615 - 11/06/15 11:55 AM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: BassCat'99]
603Country Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/12
Posts: 4875
Loc: Central Texas
That's interesting, but I can't see how neck sizing with a FL die will cause anything to happen that won't happen with a regular NK die. Still neck sizing a fireformed case, either way. And the 220 I mentioned shot partial resized Norma cases many many times before I replaced the brass, and I had zero problems. The only unexpected thing to happen was that the case neck wall thinned over time. I had read that with the 220 case, brass would flow toward the neck and cause the neck wall to thicken. The opposite happened. Odd.

Probably best that a new reloader just buys a standard, non-bushing FL die and go with that, using it as a FL die and not partial resizing.

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#6014637 - 11/06/15 12:05 PM Re: neck dies vs fl dies [Re: 603Country]
FiremanJG Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
I don't understand what yall are saying is the problem with using a FL bushing die and setting it in the press to ultimately bump the shoulders back .002". When my brass has worn out is has been due to loose primer pockets only. Up until then it shot like a champ. It was annealed every 2 or 3 loadings, and now that I have my own machine I am trying to decide how often to anneal. It is quite the chore when two of the rifles have 500 pieces of brass each.
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