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#5981020 - 10/16/15 07:12 PM Collar Conditioning?
BradyBuck Online   content
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Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 5124
Loc: Abilene, TX
Just watched Disc 1 of TRT2. At the end he goes over collar conditioning. One thing I really didn't understand is the aplication of pressure/shock when the dog obeys the command.

I understand the concept of applying pressure then removing it once you get the response you want. However, he was administering a shock even if the dog gave the response he wanted.

Example: dog is sitting facing the trainer. Trainer gives "here" comand with light tug on leash. Dog comes and shock is applied.

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#5981057 - 10/16/15 07:37 PM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: BradyBuck]
maximumintensityretriever Offline
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Registered: 04/16/13
Posts: 512
Loc: Longview, Texas
That is positive reinforcement.

Positive- to enhance
Negative- to take away
Enforcement/Punishment- to make the dog do something they're not already doing
Reinforcement- when the dog is already doing something

So, if the dog is counter surfing and you hit him with the collar it is negative enforcement because you are trying to take away an undesirable behavior. Lardy is trying to enhance a behavior by using positive reinforcement. Your example would be positive enforcement because you are increasing a behavior but the dog was not already doing it.

Positive reinforcement is superior in most cases because it shows that the dog already knows the behavior and that they understand that they are responsible for avoiding or beating the pressure by quick and stable responses. This is not saying that you will not use the other forms of correction just that you get the most out of collar conditioning this way. Remember, we are not trying to teach with the collar, just enhance the response.
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#5981066 - 10/16/15 07:45 PM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: BradyBuck]
MS1454 Online   content
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Almost there maximum, positive is to add, either a reinforcement or punishment


Edited by MS1454 (10/16/15 07:52 PM)
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#5981084 - 10/16/15 07:54 PM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: BradyBuck]
BradyBuck Online   content
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Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 5124
Loc: Abilene, TX
Ok, I think I understand.

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#5984195 - 10/19/15 03:15 PM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: BradyBuck]
passthru Online   content
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Registered: 12/05/06
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I watched it on the smart work series as well. Looked bad. But if the person who assists you knows what they are doing you need lessons so you can apply the right pressure at the right times.

Not a fan of the e collar. Personally I would rather have a dog want to obey and retrieve. Reality is it isn't always that way.
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#5984290 - 10/19/15 04:14 PM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: passthru]
BradyBuck Online   content
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Registered: 10/18/07
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Originally Posted By: passthru
I watched it on the smart work series as well. Looked bad. But if the person who assists you knows what they are doing you need lessons so you can apply the right pressure at the right times.

Not a fan of the e collar. Personally I would rather have a dog want to obey and retrieve. Reality is it isn't always that way.


I think it just depends on what your expectations are. I have a lab that I trained myself with no ecollar, no help and didn't follow a program. She probably made 300 retrieves last season...doves and ducks. She's my buddy and I love her almost like a kid. She's a model house dog and my family adores her.

Does she hold and heel and wait for me to take the bird? Nope but she does bring it to my hand
Is she steady 100% of the time? Nope
Does she cast? Nope not really...she pops and looks at me some times and I can cast her every now and then. She just picked it up over the years.

But can I sit on my dove bucket and not get up. Yup

I want my next dog to be as successfull as she can be and for her to do well in hunt tests I think an e-collar is essential.

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#5984393 - 10/19/15 05:46 PM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: passthru]
iliketohunt Offline
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Registered: 09/08/10
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Loc: Weatherford, TX
Originally Posted By: passthru
I watched it on the smart work series as well. Looked bad. But if the person who assists you knows what they are doing you need lessons so you can apply the right pressure at the right times.

Not a fan of the e collar. Personally I would rather have a dog want to obey and retrieve. Reality is it isn't always that way.


You're implying that our dogs don't want to obey or retrieve.
Ecollar is just a tool that gets them to do what they already want to do, the way we want them to do it.
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#5984458 - 10/19/15 06:31 PM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: BradyBuck]
bill oxner Offline
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Loc: Richmond
The confusion comes when they are retrieving on their own, but not coming all the way back. That's the wrong place to nick them. Do the here separately.
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#5984762 - 10/19/15 08:54 PM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: BradyBuck]
Angie B Offline
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Registered: 04/03/08
Posts: 1429
Loc: Aubrey, TX
The collar only enhances what the dog is doing at the time. If you nic the dog on "here", it will come in faster. That's a little clearer explanation then "Positive reinforcement"...

You can use the collar to eliminate a behavior but the lesson will be very short lived and will have to be reviewed often. ie trash breaking, chasing cars etc.

Angie
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#5986771 - 10/20/15 11:18 PM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: iliketohunt]
passthru Online   content
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Registered: 12/05/06
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Originally Posted By: iliketohunt
Originally Posted By: passthru
I watched it on the smart work series as well. Looked bad. But if the person who assists you knows what they are doing you need lessons so you can apply the right pressure at the right times.

Not a fan of the e collar. Personally I would rather have a dog want to obey and retrieve. Reality is it isn't always that way.


You're implying that our dogs don't want to obey or retrieve.
Ecollar is just a tool that gets them to do what they already want to do, the way we want them to do it.

I didn't imply squat. But why are you so willing to cover up the truth? Reality is force fetch is not a dog doing what it wants to do. It is doing what it's forced to do under threat of PAIN. Force fetch is necessary for HT success and to ensure downed game gets into the game bag. E collars cause pain and the dog complies under the threat of that pain. Yes the nick gets them there faster but that's because the conditioning tells them if they don't it gets worse.

The facts are immunizations are painful but necessary for our children. E collar is painful but needed to reach certain goals or to control some dogs that are less compliant. I have no idea why folks feel the need to sugar coat it. I'm not saying they are bad. I just found it painful to watch. However that will not deter me from doing that with my dog but with the help of a professional who can also teach me how and when to use that tool.

What has me leery is the number of lab owners I've known that have dogs who decided not to comply when they don't have the e collar or at least a dummy collar on. That alone tells you they do it out of understanding the pain comes when they don't comply.
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#5987052 - 10/21/15 08:30 AM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: BradyBuck]
maximumintensityretriever Offline
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Registered: 04/16/13
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Passthru you are missing the point. It is NOT about forcing the dog to do anything. It is about pressure conditioning the dog.

Virtually every method, book, or video on Retrievers out there will say to have the dog in love with retrieving BEFORE doing anything else. They ALL go on to say that if your dog has no desire to get rid of it and start with a new one. Most new trainers choose to ignore this and form their own opinions, just like you have about the e collar.

The fact is that dogs percieve different things as pressure. That is why we pressure condition with ACTUAL pressure so that later on when we keep stopping the dog and casting him 2 feet off the point and past it, he doesn't have a meltdown.

Bottom line is that most dogs that have had sugar and spice basics can't get through transition because they can't handle the mental anxiety. This is why we pressure condition.
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#5987957 - 10/21/15 06:16 PM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: BradyBuck]
passthru Online   content
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Registered: 12/05/06
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I don't have a problem with collars or conxitioning. I have trouble with y'all not being honest about it being uncomfortable or painful for the dog. I take it you've never put on your neck and took a solid "nick".
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#5987999 - 10/21/15 06:36 PM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: passthru]
maximumintensityretriever Offline
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Registered: 04/16/13
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Loc: Longview, Texas
Originally Posted By: passthru
I don't have a problem with collars or conxitioning. I have trouble with y'all not being honest about it being uncomfortable or painful for the dog. I take it you've never put on your neck and took a solid "nick".


Actually I have. Furthermore, no one ever said that it did not cause discomfort. It is an aversive just like the pinch collar, chain, or heeling stick. It's the same as the paddle your principal used before society started giving out second place trophies.

If you ever heard the words "wait until your dad gets home" you can understand pressure avoidance. Mom may have nagged but dad was willing to use enough pressure for you to remember the lesson.

The beauty part about the e collar is it is adjustable. I have a not very well socialized dog in the kennel right now that will flip on his back and scream like a banshee whenever the leash tightens but he does great on a 1 on the collar. I have also had dogs that would rip your arm out of the socket and no pinch collar was enough pressure for them but one little nick was enough to stop them in their tracks.

It's not about the tool its about knowing how to read the dog.
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Maximum Intensity Retrievers
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(903) 720-6842

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#5988362 - 10/21/15 10:05 PM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: BradyBuck]
passthru Online   content
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Registered: 12/05/06
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Loc: Saginaw, Tx
Your last sentence said it all. Thus my earlier statement regarding the dogs owner getting trained as well as the dog because you know as well as I do far too many dog owners use one without really understanding how and when to use it. And I don't want to make screw up on what could other wise be a valuable tool or a good dog.

Which by the way it's looking like she could be.
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#5988420 - 10/21/15 10:54 PM Re: Collar Conditioning? [Re: BradyBuck]
BradyBuck Online   content
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Registered: 10/18/07
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Well I spank my kids so I figure a little electric shock to the neck of my dog isn't to bad. Haha


Edited by BradyBuck (10/21/15 10:54 PM)

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