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Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. #5973913 10/12/15 09:19 PM
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I have a pre 64 winchester model 70 coming to me. I would like to oil finish the stock. I believe this is the way they came from the factory. I have read about tung oil and tru oil and that the tru oil is thick and sticky vs the tung oil. I'm not trying to refinish the stock just bring back a little grain and maybe some color. Is there a certain type of oil that works better than the other? Method of application? Any pre 64 gurus out there?




Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5973961 10/12/15 09:46 PM
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I have the definitive book on the Model 70, written by Roger Rule. There is NO mention of oil finishing on the standard rifles.
Stocks were sanded, filled and lacquer finished, thruout their production. A change was made in 1959; the filler color was changed to a "warm Brown" to color the poorer grade of walnut which was all that was available.
After 1946, stocks could be special ordered with a "French Polish" finish. The extra charge was $9.35. rifle


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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5973983 10/12/15 09:55 PM
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The best $9.35 one could possibly spend.

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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5974135 10/12/15 11:23 PM
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I think they all have a lacquer finish. I wanted to do the same with mine. Since it will ruin any collector value, I decided against it. I think it would look good. I also looked at having a stock built for it, re-blued, the whole nine yards, jeez , very expensive. I think on gunbroker or somewhere I saw some , pre finished stocks which were VERY nice but kinda expensive.

Se if yours is a shooter and go from there .


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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: Buzzsaw] #5974165 10/12/15 11:41 PM
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Jack O'Connor's two .270s, both pre64 M70s, were possibly the most famous hunting rifles of our era. He often wrote that he used linseed oil on the stocks, which were both re-stocked with "Circassian" walnut.

I've refinished 2-3 wood stocks with TruOil, but none were pre64 factory stocks. I bet a call to Winchester might turn up an older guy who could steer you in the right direction.


"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple.....and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5974198 10/13/15 12:05 AM
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If you do decide to refinish the stock, there are plenty of options, and I've tried several. First one I tried, and it turned out pretty good, was hand rubbed Boiled Linseed Oil. After that, by a few years, I tried Watco Danish Oil, and that looked better than the BLO. I tried Minwax Antique Oil, which looked really nice, but it and the Danish Oil won't keep out moisture (BLO won't either). Most recent finish, and the best by far, was Waterlox Original in Satin. It has Tung Oil in it and will fill the grain and build a coat, the thickness of which depends on how many coats.

Apply in thin coats, with a small foam brush, so that the finish won't sag or run, and 3 coats will look good. More coats will look even better as the pores are filled and the finish builds. One coat per day and let it cure for a month. I hung the stock in my workshop, from an eyelet screw in the butt. You'll want very good lighting so you can see any spots you missed as you apply it.


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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5974282 10/13/15 12:39 AM
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Thanks for all the info guys!! A little more info on the gun for y'all. Its a standard model, chambered in 270 wcf(win), the serial puts production in 1948. Serial and bolt numbers match, the rear sight looks to have been ground down and left in dovetail. What rear sight did they come with? Ive seen 2 types. The stock may have been refinished in the past. I say that because it doesn't look lacquered. It looks orangish/reddish, and kind of dull and a little dirty. Has a few little dents in the wood but no real gouges. It also has a cheek riser on the buttstock, I don't think its original to the stock. I will post picks when I get it to share more. I thank y'all for the help and anymore y'all may have.




Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: dawaba] #5974612 10/13/15 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted By: dawaba
Jack O'Connor's two .270s, both pre64 M70s, were possibly the most famous hunting rifles of our era. He often wrote that he used linseed oil on the stocks, which were both re-stocked with "Circassian" walnut.

I've refinished 2-3 wood stocks with TruOil, but none were pre64 factory stocks. I bet a call to Winchester might turn up an older guy who could steer you in the right direction.

Jack O'Conner's 270's were custom stocked by Al Biesen. Jack often wrote about rubbing them with boiled linseed oil and letting them stand for a few days until the oil soaked in/dried.


Old age and treachery beats youth and stupid every time!
Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5974809 10/13/15 12:14 PM
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Oil finished stocks are beautiful if done right. The oil needs to be applied in thin coats, hand rubbing thins the oil, allowing it to fill the pores. The critical thing is that each coat must be completely dry before a new coat is applied or you get soft dull areas. French polish is the same, except after each layer is dried, it's rubbed with a rotten cloth filled with rouge. The result can be a mirror finish.


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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5974887 10/13/15 01:10 PM
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No they used varnish...shellac what every you want to call it....oil finish is not for production rifles...and it was very much a production rifle...even in the good ol days. I have owned many pre 64 M70s and all had varnish/shellac on the stock.

Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: 505ed] #5974908 10/13/15 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: 505ed
No they used varnish...shellac what every you want to call it....oil finish is not for production rifles...and it was very much a production rifle...even in the good ol days. I have owned many pre 64 M70s and all had varnish/shellac on the stock.

Check with Winchester. Sorry, you are incorrect.


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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5975015 10/13/15 02:18 PM
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This kit is available http://www.midwayusa.com/product/160127/galazan-pre-64-winchester-stock-finish-kit-with-instructions It contains lacquer. The optional French polish is an oil finish so it would not be wrong for higher grade guns. correction I was wrong about a french polish it's shellac and oil not just an oil finish.

Last edited by nsmike; 10/13/15 02:51 PM.

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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: nsmike] #5975073 10/13/15 02:42 PM
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There was some differences in the pre 64's, the standard, the low comb, feather weight(think it had drilled bolt), the cheek piece was part of some versions. The checkering on pre 64 rifles wasn't the steamed and stamped, the later Westerns were more stamped out guns and high gloss Remington type finish. My dad has some spare pre 64 stocks he keeps around. You can take some of the dents out with damp towel and iron if you take your time and depending on how bad they are. Dad uses Linseed oil when he recuts checkering.


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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5975262 10/13/15 04:35 PM
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French Polish is Shellac, not oil of any type. The reason it's called French Polish is the application method. Shellac makes a good stock finish, and scratches should be easy to repair.

I used to be a fan of Boiled Linseed Oil on stocks. I'm not now. Rather use Tung Oil. Much rather use the Waterlox Original in Satin.

I have a distant relative that is a pro woodworker. He makes small tables that sell for thousands of dollars. He's famous, and famous raises the price. I was visiting him and asked what finish he used. Looked quite fancy. He said it was Waterlox Original in Satin. I started using it on wooden table and things that I made. Looked great. Then I decided to redo the finish on my old Ruger M77, which I had put a rubbed BLO finish on some years ago. I went online to see what folks were using these days. Some used wiping varnishes (Watco Danish Oil and Minwax Antique Oil are that). Some used TruOil. And some used the Waterlox Original. Hmmm. Well, I had some of that, so I used it on the Ruger stock. Excellent results. It isn't a fast finish and it takes time to cure, but it really looks nice and you can build a finish and fill the pores in the wood for a smooth glassy result.


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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5975283 10/13/15 04:49 PM
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The process is lengthy and very repetitive. There are also many similar variations in schedule and technique. What is described here is one such schedule. The finish is obtained through a specific combination of different rubbing motions (generally circles and figure-eights), waiting for considerable time, building up layers of polish and then spiriting off any streaks left in the surface.

The fad is first used to put a thinned coat of shellac on, then thicker coats with small amounts of superfine pumice, a crushed volcanic glass. The pumice acts both as a fine abrasive and to fill the pores of open-grain woods. Each coat must be fully dry before the next application, to avoid lifting out the softened finish.

The 'fad' is mostly lubricated with an oil that is integrated into the overall finish.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_polish


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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5975411 10/13/15 06:04 PM
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interesting. My woodworking book, the one I mostly use as a reference, doesn't mention the oil. And I was watching a guy in Natchez, Miss apply a French polish and he didn't use an oil. I have to admit that is one finish that I have never tried. I've used shellac through spray guns, but that's my only use of shellac. I use it between certain coats on wood. Shellac will bond with many type finishing materials, such as putting it over a water based glaze so that a finishing lacquer can then be sprayed on. As a matter of fact, once I discovered the Waterlox I quit going to such lengths with shellac and lacquer. I got tired of cleaning all those spray guns.

Regardless, French Polish isn't a finish you'd want to put on a hunting rifle. Not at all water resistant and tends to cloud up. It would look great on a museum piece rifle however.


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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5975534 10/13/15 07:18 PM
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Now I have a dilemma. Rules book is supposed to be "THE AUTHORITY" on Model 70 Winchesters. I also own George Madis book on Winchesters.
Per Madis, "In the early years of production, a fair number of rifles were given an oiled finish instead of the usual varnished finish. In the early 1950's, laquer replaced the varnished finish".
So who is correct?? Rule or Madis?? confused2
My apologies to the previous poster who indicated that the stocks were shellacked or varnished.

Last edited by DH3; 10/13/15 07:20 PM.

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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5975587 10/13/15 07:39 PM
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You mentioned that you do not want to refinish the stock, just bring back a little grain and maybe some color. If you want to try something simple I would recommend Old West Snake Oil. They actually now have an Old West Snake Oil #2 designed specifically for pre-64 Winchesters because it contains a hint of stain. I have used both with success on my old Winchesters. This was recommended by a well-known Winchester historian and member of the Board of Directors of the Winchester Arms Collectors Association for people who don't want to negatively affect the value of a collectible gun by refinishing the stock. This would be a relatively inexpensive and easy option to try. If you are not satisfied with the results you would still have the option of trying something a little more involved.

Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: DH3] #5975717 10/13/15 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: DH3
Now I have a dilemma. Rules book is supposed to be "THE AUTHORITY" on Model 70 Winchesters. I also own George Madis book on Winchesters.
Per Madis, "In the early years of production, a fair number of rifles were given an oiled finish instead of the usual varnished finish. In the early 1950's, laquer replaced the varnished finish".
So who is correct?? Rule or Madis?? confused2
My apologies to the previous poster who indicated that the stocks were shellacked or varnished.


I would lean towards Madis! Have most of his books and very well researched subjects from him.


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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5975978 10/13/15 10:47 PM
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This is pretty much my feelings towards the stock.
Quote:
don't want to negatively affect the value of a collectible gun by refinishing the stock


But I'm also 90% sure the value of the rifle has been effected, the factory buttplate has been replaced with some sort of recoil pad.

I'm leaning hard towards the tung oil. Seems like decent finish for a shooter grade rifle that will be shot and hunted. Application seems like a breeze, dries fast compared to the linseed. Do I need to "clean" the stock surface first? How would I go about doing this? Could this effect the value of the gun anymore?




Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5976009 10/13/15 11:02 PM
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The replacement of the factory butt plate certainly has a significant impact on the value. Refinishing the wood, if the current finish is original, would also negatively affect the value. Of course, if the wood finish is not original, I can't see any harm in a better refinish.

Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5976194 10/14/15 12:52 AM
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Just remember collectors don't collect guns in poor condition. If the original finish is badley deteriorated, good refinishing can actually improve the value to a point, it just won't be collectors grade. There's a market for pre 64 model 70's as shooters.


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Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: nsmike] #5976230 10/14/15 01:11 AM
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nsmike, I know your right and the more I think about it, its probably not a collector. I'm definatly gonna hunt it and shoot it. So maybe I'll just finish it in the tung oil and hopefully I like it and go from there. I'm just gald I got one. I don't really have any safe queens anyways. Probably do the tung oil, and replace the recoil pad with a red rubber "winchester" pad and throw a leupold on it and shoot away. Maybe bed and float.

Last edited by ju993rnaut; 10/14/15 01:12 AM.



Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: DH3] #5976238 10/14/15 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: DH3
Originally Posted By: 505ed
No they used varnish...shellac what every you want to call it....oil finish is not for production rifles...and it was very much a production rifle...even in the good ol days. I have owned many pre 64 M70s and all had varnish/shellac on the stock.

Check with Winchester. Sorry, you are incorrect.


Please expound....I have owned only 27 pre 64 model 70s....over the years from very rare ones like 35 remington, 22 hornet super grade and, 300savage to fairly common ones like 220 swift and 30-06. ALL the ones I owned were finished in some sort of varnish--most had a stain put on them too to give the wood an "even" look... not boiled andrubbed linseed oil. Were there some finished this way...I am sure they were-guns in that era had great amounts of variability, but I would say the vast majority, were varnished and stained. Your comment does not back up any facts, I owned and still own quite a few. Just 20 min ago I put down a 95% 22 hornet it had a stained varnished stock on it...believe what you want!

Ed

Last edited by 505ed; 10/14/15 05:34 AM.
Re: Pre 64 win 70 stock finish options. [Re: ju993rnaut] #5976393 10/14/15 02:25 AM
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Well, if somebody wants to know if a finish is shellac, denatured alcohol will tell you. Just pick a hidden spot.

Way back when, I had a Pre-64 in 220 Swift. I liked it, but was afraid to mess with it and ruin any value. Finally just sold it for more than I paid for it. Plus, the rifle was heavy and I wanted something lighter. Thinking back on the stock finish, it did look more like a beat up varnish finish than anything else, but that's just a guess.

I may well be wrong, but I'm thinking that shellac isn't a great stock finish. Varnish would certainly be more durable. But that's only opinion and not fact.


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