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#5964351 - 10/06/15 04:00 PM Pedigree part 2
Leonardo Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 4662
Loc: Wise County
I see many ads and hear many people talk about an upcoming litter and reference grandparent's or siblings of an accomplished brother or sister. I understand family history as it relates to humans and I would imagine that it is similar in dogs. But it seems to me that people are paying for this.

My point is how many people truly look and act like an uncle, cousin, sister, or grandparent? They often resemble or remind people of whomever they are comparing them too but most of the time it is biased. It seems that most people look more like their mom and dad than any relative further down the line. They also tend to act like them and or share some of the same traits as their parents.

For the breeders and experience dog people of the forum how far do these bloodlines carry and how do you decide what it is worth? Do you give any credit to something a littermate accomplished and or a different dog out of the same sire or dam?

For example a breeder has a litter and is keeping a pup for themselves, do you care which dog or are you alright with just having the bloodline in your kennel?

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#5964973 - 10/06/15 08:32 PM Re: Pedigree part 2 [Re: Leonardo]
maximumintensityretriever Offline
Tracker

Registered: 04/16/13
Posts: 512
Loc: Longview, Texas
That's kind of a complicated question and in my mind it depends. Some sires for instance tend to overpower or enhance a breeding to just about any bitch. Ford for instance is known for enhancing the hell out of most breedings and so a line breeding on him, even a few generations back tends to bring a ton to the table. Some others that seem to be that way are Cosmo, Lean Mac, and Wilderness Harley to Go. On the other hand there are some sires that tend to just compliment and unless they are at the forefront you don't get much of them. In my experience an example of this would be Cody Cut A Lean Grade. My point is its not always cut and dry. I tend to look a little more at the bitch line for this reason.

PS- would never take anything away from the greats. Titles omitted to save time.
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Maximum Intensity Retrievers
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#5965782 - 10/07/15 10:24 AM Re: Pedigree part 2 [Re: Leonardo]
mattyg06 Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 04/22/14
Posts: 430
Line breeding in dogs is NOT very similar to general reproduction in humans. Think of it this way, if you took 10 hall of fame NFL guys who happened to be all offensive lineman and they all married the daughters of 10 other different hall of fame NFL offensive linemen then had 10 kids, then those kids married the kids of each other, and did this for several generations then you would likely have a group out people that are larger, faster, more athletic than the general population.

With line breeding you would like to breed to 'near relatives' but not 'too near'. This ideally helps 'clumps' certain genes/traits into making those desired traits more predictably passed to the off spring.

In humans we are all generally considered out crosses (except some royal families in Europe) as we typically marry outside of our family line. When doing this the traits passed on are typically less predictable over the long run. This also tends to average out the population rather than push the population in a certain direction.

Yes, the dog's immediate parents have the most influence on the pup but in a line breeding situation you hope to have the desired traits clumped together already so the grandparents/great grandparents have more of an influence on a pup than they would in human reproduction.

If you see a litter where all the litter mates are high performing then the breeder takes note of that and may guide his/her next breeding. This would solidify the idea that the breeder picked a good pairing the those desired traits were passed along well. If that happens and you see a repeat breeding done by the breeder you have a good idea the 2nd breeding will also tend to throw good pups.

Good breeders are always looking to add certain traits in their line of dogs, so they typically are looking for different characteristics to add to their gene pool. This may or may not be the same things a buyer is specifically looking for in a single dog. But when picking a pup the most important voice IMO is that of the breeder who has worked for generations with a group of dogs. As a buyer you will no pick up things in a single visit or even multiple, that they will recognize from experience.

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#5965845 - 10/07/15 11:09 AM Re: Pedigree part 2 [Re: Leonardo]
Leonardo Offline
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Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 4662
Loc: Wise County
I understand how line breeding is getting brought up in response to my question but that wasn't my real intention. I understand why people line breed for certain traits.

If you are trying to add a certain trait into your breeding program and you have chosen a sire, do you care which pup you keep? The obvious answer is to keep the puppy with the traits strongest to what your goals were intended to be. We all know that is hard to do unless you plan on raising the entire litter.

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#5965917 - 10/07/15 11:51 AM Re: Pedigree part 2 [Re: Leonardo]
mattyg06 Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 04/22/14
Posts: 430
You answered your own question pretty well there. But like I mentioned with line breeding, this doesn't all of a sudden happen in one generation either even if you raise the entire litter and kept everyone of them. You could pick a sire that the desired trait didn't enhance the dam so the puppies may not have what your looking for as MaxIntRet referenced. Or maybe the puppy is a carrier of the trait and just needs to be bred back to the original line to help bring it out or maybe bred back to the out cross line. Breeding is lots of educated guessing with very careful observation over generations of all progeny.

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#5966075 - 10/07/15 01:14 PM Re: Pedigree part 2 [Re: Leonardo]
maximumintensityretriever Offline
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Registered: 04/16/13
Posts: 512
Loc: Longview, Texas
Again your question is tough. Some people believe that it's all a gamble and you should just reach into the whelping box and pick one. Others believe that you can tell at 7 weeks and you should ask the breeder or if you are the breeder you should have a good idea. Still others like to keep the pups a little longer say until 12 weeks or so and believe they can pick the best one. I fall into the belief that you can tell some things but not others. Desire for instance is something that I believe you can tell early where you are probably not going to be able to tell things like brain, bottom, or water courage for example. I think every breeder would love to say that they are keeping the best pup from the litter but depending on what your goal is how do you know unless, like you said, you raise and train them all.

Then the other question is, did all of the dogs get the same shot? All performance homes, all bred to outstanding specimens? There would be no way to ever tell which is why it is not an exact science. I will say some of the best producing bitches in history were the last pick that no one wanted.
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Maximum Intensity Retrievers
https://m.facebook.com/maximumintensity.retrievers
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#5966157 - 10/07/15 02:10 PM Re: Pedigree part 2 [Re: Leonardo]
Leonardo Offline
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Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 4662
Loc: Wise County
Appreciate everyone's input. It is just really food for thought on my reasoning for asking. I have gotten pretty involved in the dog world the last couple of years and this is truly one of the most interesting parts for me. Overall just still a newbie learning all I can.

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#5966358 - 10/07/15 04:32 PM Re: Pedigree part 2 [Re: Leonardo]
kindall Online   sad


Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 3768
Loc: Spring, Tx
I don't consider myself a experience dog person, and I'm sure not a breeder. So this would just be my personal thoughts.

Listing a accomplished litter mate looks good, but I would be more interested in how many accomplished prodigy is in a bloodline. The internet makes it pretty easy to look up the sire, grand sire, or even great grand sire, are they passing on genes to offspring that makes them able to compete at a high level, or is it just a excellent dog here and there. You can do the same search on the bitches.
I always feel its good to have a mentor, as they will have first hand knowledge of the dogs in the pedigree, and that's something you wont find by looking on the internet.
_________________________

Shopping with your husband is like hunting with the game warden.
Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.



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#5969740 - 10/09/15 04:39 PM Re: Pedigree part 2 [Re: Leonardo]
Hogman4127 Offline
Tracker

Registered: 09/23/13
Posts: 626
I think it is something to look at for sure but remember even two doctors can have a dumb kid.

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