R.T. Hare from springfield armory had documented hits and was accurate on a 6' target with a 45-70 at over 2 miles and was at the time the only known rifleman to make hits out to 3200 yards in testing with 3 different rifles, this was way back in 1879 during army trials at the beach in Sandy Hook. Not to say what the guys at Hill County did wasn't awesome but a World record shot?? Ok we'll give em that...

7.1% hit probability is a waste of time and resources in my opinion. And if you had bothered to ask rather than assume, as your post implies, yes I enjoy shooting long range.

Just because I don't comment much on the subject does not mean I am less than proficient. I hold my tongue when forum "experts" cross into the BS zone to be polite...

Shooting sub MOA at 100 yards is easy provided your equipment or ammo is not defective. Every barrel I have easily shoots sub MOA with the exception of a 308WIN barrel chambered by Thoroughbred Rifles (Dale Trout) that one is a POS.

I'm sure glad the U.S. Airforce, followed by NASA, didn't feel their rocket experiments were a waste of time. And God bless the men that gave their lives in those experiments. All of us have benefited from their sacrifices, and do on a daily basis, with all of the sattelites orbiting the globe.

Experiments like this, pushing the supposed limit farther helps the entire rifle community. I have a Kestrel weather meter with Applied Ballistics. It will give me every environmental condition to my location and adjust my elevation and windage corrections, to compensate for that environment, anywhere on the planet I am standing. I test the accuracy of this instrument weekly. Instruments like that are born of experimentation like this.

Although you did not quote my post, I am going to guess that it was directed at me.

I guess a 7% hit probability is good enough for you. Me? Not so much..

I never questioned the technology, this has truly been the golden age of precision shooting, but guessing the winds over a 2+ mile distance is an exercise in futility.

Yes we can get into a pissing contest on the latest and greatest in shooting aids, but that would prove nothing. I am glad you have a Kestrel, and honestly anyone into ELR pretty much has been using them or some other sort of weather station plus a ballistic calculator for years. Welcome to the club, better late than never.

I support all tech however, I think of long range shooting 1000+ as an art form. Give me the muzzel fps and bullet weight and BC I will do the rest without a calculator. When working on loads I use the tech. when shooting for fun I dont even bring a wind meter. Just think it makes it more interesting for experts.

"Better late than never." That's a good one, like I just figured that out yesterday.

I don't even use it as a wind meter. It tells the wind where I am, not down range at the target. The eyes tell what the wind is doing down there.

It wasn't even my project and I am defending it. Why? Maybe trying to open a mind that is closed like a steel foot trap.

Well since your DA estimates are so off (from previous posts) maybe you should use it more (or some other weather station).

If this was directed at me (RE:Maybe trying to open a mind that is closed like a steel foot trap.) You have no clue what you are talking about.

Reading your posts, I find you barely catching up to the curve, and often speaking of things that you seem (in your writing) to barely have a grasp of (if at all). I have been tempted correct you on more than one occasion but resist. Why? Because I can tell that you are thin skinned and will most likely become defensive rather taking it in a constructive manner. Then there are the people that have given you money for said advice that are inevitably going to leap in because they will be compelled to defend your creds to feel like they were not duped into paying for your "courses". And before the S-storm hits, can you teach someone to shoot better, I'm sure you can, but by no stretch are you the expert that you purport yourself to be.

Well, here comes one ot the 'inevitable leap ins'...RD, as a total amateur and 'hobbyist' (I Don't hunt with a rifle), I took JG's course and found him to be the expert for what I needed. I cannot speak of him being the level of expert that you seem to be talking about as I am not one and therefore am not qualified to judge. You say you have been tempted to correct him....since I read this site for learning as well as enjoyment I would think correcting someone would be beneficial for many of us. However, you have not, you have only called him out without giving the readers here some idea of what makes you qualified to judge....please enlighten us.
P_102

As Chris said, please enlighten us.

And please tell me how I am cheating people of their time abd money. Tell me why those bullets went exactly where they were supposed to go, even thought I don't know anything, and barely have a grasp. I want to get better at this and clearly you are the answer.

I'm not selling/shilling so I have nothing to prove.

You on the other hand are. I believe you owe it to those whose money you have taken to list your qualifications.

Are you or have you ever been a certified instructor with any reputable outfit? What courses have you done as a part of your continuing education? What work experience do you have with a precision rifle?

The most rudimentary part of shooting is the fundamentals. The fundamentals are vital for shooting or "driving" (as you are so fond of saying in your tacti-cool way) a rifle. This is the easiest part of teaching. Saying you can get someone on steel at known distances, with proven dope is really nothing to beat your chest over. As shooters learn and develop they will make their own opinion, but I recon they will come to a similar conclusion that you are a shill that poses as an expert.

RD, the qualification question was posed to you since you found in necessary to 'call out' JG. As far as I'm concerned and from my experience with shooting with JG, taking his course and reading his posts, he is far more qualified than someone coming on here and making statements like yours with nothing to back it up. It seems to me that someone has a case of the 'red a$$' about another person using his knowledge to help others and help pay for his place in the country at the same time...frankly, I applaud that in a person. P_102

"Texan breaks the world record for longest shot at 3800 yards read more at...."

I struggle with this article a bit. First off I know a few guys that have beat 3800, but in fairness there was no certified body there to record the event but I don't see that on this article/event either so I would not agree this guy broke the world record?

ELR type shooting is a different game, I agree that if you throw enough lead at a target once you are reasonably doped in, you will hit that target eventually which is why I think that ELR records, when officially recorded, need to be within "X" hits - say 5, 7, 10 whatever and then repeated in a 2nd string of attempts in the same or less # of alloted shots. This guy did it in 14 rounds, once, and that is still very impressive but I would be hard pressed to use the words world-record when putting a label on it.

ELR is not about knowing your environmentals, dope and sending a shot like it is at 300, 500, 1200 yards. It's now about having to read wind columns, sometimes 2, 3 or more... plus knowing the impact of the terrain and wind turbulence as a result of that terrain, knowing the impact of your speed and bullet mass mass and variable BC's during that flight time, planning for the subsonic transition, and and and...

good shot, talented folks, world-record? depends on what standards you measure with.

Come on Rockfish Dave, I think we all benefit from constructive criticism but your input seemed to veer into disparagement. You seem very knowledgeable and accomplished and encourage you to weigh in more often but in a more positive approach.

JG does not need me to defend him and I agree with P_102's input. What I will say is that JG has introduced a large number of us into the long range rifle sport and has helped us with ftf instruction, range time, competitions that brought many of us together PLUS he provides many of us a great deal of input and advice via PM, email, texts and phone calls. He, Chad and several others have been a great resource to many of us and helped the overall sport via introducing so many noobs to this long range game.

Please think about and it and consider joining in constructively and we'll all benefit.

JG has been kind enough on more than one occasion to try and help me with my questions since I am a new shooter. He has written out several paragraphs to be helpful and constructive to not only me but others. More than a few times I might add. He is a constructive and very helpful member on this forum no matter what his credentials are. So I hate to say what your rant makes you look like. But after reading this I think everybody will have a negative opinion of you.


Hey Chad your right he could only he hit that plate at 1000 yards with his pistol standing with no support. Terrible shot!!! LOL

[quote=Bigfoot]JG has been kind enough on more than one occasion to try and help me with my questions since I am a new shooter. He has written out several paragraphs to be helpful and constructive to not only me but others. More than a few times I might add. He is a constructive and very helpful member on this forum no matter what his credentials are. So I hate to say what your rant makes you look like. But after reading this I think everybody will have a negative opinion of you.

I was "duped" into paying for his course and dang glad I was. Hitting 800 yd targets within 30 min of shooting was nothing short of extraordinary for me having never shot past 1/4 that distance. Im sure JG can attest to how excited I was about it. I'd say he is fully qualified to give his input on the situation, especially after watching him shoot. Maybe youll be at the next match and you can show us how a real professional does it?

As far as thin skin, I'd say you might ought to look in the mirror.

Texans have long been known as outstanding shooters.

If you are not up to date on this important aspect of Texas history, this brief documentary will set you straight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOdEKMmxyWg

Sorry, man but they worship the ground jg walks on around here. Your words will fall on deaf ears.

If his skin was any thinner, and he'd have a reservoir tip on top of his head.

(Famous Dennis Miller quote about Obama.)

I wouldn't say "worship"

I forgot, I'm a troll. I dared to disagree with the great one.

How'd the bash session work out today, Dave?

Sorry I've been on the range all day wasting someone else's time and money. Even though he left extremely happy, satisfied that he learned what he wanted to learn and more.

I hold a certification from the Texas Commision on Fire Protection as an "Instructor Intermediate". That is a course that is five, eight hour days. NRA Rifle Instructor is one eight hour day. Add to that hundreds of fire recruits educated for 11 years, and now probably more than one hundred shooters educated. Are those credentials good enough for you?

My CE happens on a weekly basis. I make cold bore shots 500 yards, and beyond, two to three days a week. I shoot prairie dogs every year in the panhandle wind, and the farthest confirmed hit ti date has been 710 yards. I shoot P.R.S matches and have since the inception of the P.R.S. Those matches have significantly challenged Army Snipers as well as some of the best and experienced riflemen I have ever seen. They are where I go to learn and improve.

Fundamentals escape more people than not. In fact, the older the client is the more bad habits I have to correct. Shooting known distance is always the shot. When I don't know the distance I push a button on a laser range finder. They have been around for a very long time, you should look into them. Once you push the button the once unknown distance becomes known. I also know how to range with the reticle. 100% of the guys that show up have zero DOPE before they arrived. Most have never shot past 300 yards, some not beyond 200 yards. They get DOPE the day they spend on the range.

I teach not only fundamentals but how ballistic calculators work, how that translates to the scope/ shot, and how to analyze problems and correct them. How to read wind, and how to correct for it. How to use previous information for the next shot. How to analyze mirage, terrain, and wind indicators without the use of wind flags since I do not have any on my range. The goal is to get shooters to witness their own impact, or more importantly, their miss and make a proper correction quickly. Then I want them to be able to depart from me, go out in the world, practice, and know how to reproduce the distant shots on any other cartridge and bullet they choose in the future.


It looks as if several good men that have spent a day with me have come to my defense. THANK YOU ALL!

So, Dave, all you have really accomplished is to push everyone away from you in an attempt to belittle me for no good reason.

It's looking like you are. I am in no way great. If you are butt hurt my me having helped many people around here, mostly of no benefit to myself. Then you can step up and provide the help they need, and stay vigilant answering the PMs that show up in your inbox.

I hunted with a guy once that claimed he shot a 6 point running at 1100 yards and he did it with a 6mm Ruger M77. He claimed he had a witness but I never got the witnesses name. If he really did it I would call that a world record.

I have nothing usefull to offer on this thread.