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#5896525 - 08/25/15 10:29 PM Force Fetch Help
Exbellicus Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: DFW
Working on force fetch and hit a rough patch. Scooby does well with hold and fetch using an ear pinch, but freaks out when a low e-collar stim is added as pressure and the ear pinch is dropped. I have him tied up on a table so he can't go anywhere, but he freaks out and spins in circles (or runs panicked around my legs the one time we worked off-leash on the ground).

Any tips?

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#5896536 - 08/25/15 10:38 PM Re: Force Fetch Help [Re: Exbellicus]
MS1454 Online   content
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2702
Loc: Houston/Sealy
Which program are you followin?
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#5896546 - 08/25/15 10:46 PM Re: Force Fetch Help [Re: Exbellicus]
Exbellicus Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: DFW
Freddy Kings from YouTube

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#5896637 - 08/26/15 05:27 AM Re: Force Fetch Help [Re: Exbellicus]
bobcat1 Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 1473
Loc: Sanger, Texas
Stop using e-collar.
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#5896787 - 08/26/15 08:11 AM Re: Force Fetch Help [Re: Exbellicus]
maximumintensityretriever Offline
Tracker

Registered: 04/16/13
Posts: 512
Loc: Longview, Texas
This is confusion. Has your dog been collar conditioned prior to this? There is a reason that we introduce aversives in obedience prior to force fetch and this is it. Your dog should be well conditioned (stable responses with no adverse reactions) to various forms of pressure (pinch/chain, heeling stick, and e collar) prior to beginning force fetch. Some programs recommend collar conditioning after FF but this is the reaction you get with a sensitive dog.

Good luck
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#5897008 - 08/26/15 10:38 AM Re: Force Fetch Help [Re: maximumintensityretriever]
Gdogg Offline
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Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 4557
Loc: Liberty Hill
Originally Posted By: maximumintensityretriever
This is confusion. Has your dog been collar conditioned prior to this? There is a reason that we introduce aversives in obedience prior to force fetch and this is it. Your dog should be well conditioned (stable responses with no adverse reactions) to various forms of pressure (pinch/chain, heeling stick, and e collar) prior to beginning force fetch. Some programs recommend collar conditioning after FF but this is the reaction you get with a sensitive dog.

Good luck


I agree, sounds to me the dog was not properly collar conditioned. How does your dog react with other e-collar corrections?

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#5898093 - 08/26/15 08:51 PM Re: Force Fetch Help [Re: Gdogg]
Birdhunter61 Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 368
Originally Posted By: Gdogg
Originally Posted By: maximumintensityretriever
This is confusion. Has your dog been collar conditioned prior to this? There is a reason that we introduce aversives in obedience prior to force fetch and this is it. Your dog should be well conditioned (stable responses with no adverse reactions) to various forms of pressure (pinch/chain, heeling stick, and e collar) prior to beginning force fetch. Some programs recommend collar conditioning after FF but this is the reaction you get with a sensitive dog.

Good luck


I agree, sounds to me the dog was not properly collar conditioned. How does your dog react with other e-collar corrections?


Exactly; this is the problem with a lot of videos. They tend to skip a lot of steps because of time limitations.

I disagree Tony, you will get this reaction from any dog not properly collar conditioned. Not necessarily soft, certainly doesn't understand the pressure.


Robby

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#5898378 - 08/26/15 11:25 PM Re: Force Fetch Help [Re: Birdhunter61]
maximumintensityretriever Offline
Tracker

Registered: 04/16/13
Posts: 512
Loc: Longview, Texas
Originally Posted By: Birdhunter61
Originally Posted By: Gdogg
Originally Posted By: maximumintensityretriever
This is confusion. Has your dog been collar conditioned prior to this? There is a reason that we introduce aversives in obedience prior to force fetch and this is it. Your dog should be well conditioned (stable responses with no adverse reactions) to various forms of pressure (pinch/chain, heeling stick, and e collar) prior to beginning force fetch. Some programs recommend collar conditioning after FF but this is the reaction you get with a sensitive dog.

Good luck


I agree, sounds to me the dog was not properly collar conditioned. How does your dog react with other e-collar corrections?


Exactly; this is the problem with a lot of videos. They tend to skip a lot of steps because of time limitations.

I disagree Tony, you will get this reaction from any dog not properly collar conditioned. Not necessarily soft, certainly doesn't understand the pressure.


Robby


You're right but it is certainly amplified with a sensitive dog. This dog also sounds like somewhat of a bolter which is what led me to the sensitivity comment. I forgot to mention in my other post that this dog should be on lead to prevent that.
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#5898506 - 08/27/15 07:25 AM Re: Force Fetch Help [Re: Exbellicus]
poisonivie Offline


Registered: 03/10/09
Posts: 7053
Loc: Bridgeport, Tx
All dog owners that use an ecollar should hit themselves with it before they ever use it on the dog. It's only fair that you know what you are subjecting your dog to. I will make you use it a little more judiciously.
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#5899071 - 08/27/15 01:13 PM Re: Force Fetch Help [Re: Exbellicus]
Exbellicus Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: DFW
He does fine with tap-length collar corrections in here, sit, and heel situations. I normally use a 5 setting for day-to-day. This does not cause any yelps. With the fetch command, I'm using a constant 2 until he gets the item in his mouth and it's driving him nuts.

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#5899564 - 08/27/15 06:16 PM Re: Force Fetch Help [Re: Exbellicus]
maximumintensityretriever Offline
Tracker

Registered: 04/16/13
Posts: 512
Loc: Longview, Texas
Are you still holding the collar and his ear?
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#5900489 - 08/28/15 09:00 AM Re: Force Fetch Help [Re: Exbellicus]
BradyBuck Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 5117
Loc: Abilene, TX
I just had a thought. Didn't you just do a snake avoidance clinic? I wonder if that has anything to do with his reactions to the e-collar?


Edited by BradyBuck (08/28/15 09:00 AM)

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#5900493 - 08/28/15 09:02 AM Re: Force Fetch Help [Re: Exbellicus]
Exbellicus Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: DFW
Wow maybe you're right

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#5900642 - 08/28/15 10:29 AM Re: Force Fetch Help [Re: Exbellicus]
wal1809 Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 10838
Loc: Texas
I had not seen the post until now. It is hard to say right now what is happening with limited information on where you are in FF, what method ect. If the dog is freaking out on the collar then stop using it. If I had to direct you on how to get through this with the information I have then I would say this. Stop using the collar for now. Back up in the training. Dogs freak because they are afraid. Why is he afraid? Why is he afraid of constant but not the nicks? What setting is your collar on? Is it set too high for a constant stimulation. You should set on a very very low setting.

The collar should be on zero when you start. One setting higher and hit the nick. Keep going higher until the dog lifts his ears and looks for something. That is as high a setting as I would train with. Anything higher on a constant setting will scare the dog. I hit dogs with the highest setting possible because it is a different training. I let off as soon as they turn their heads.

So I say back up in training and go easy for the time being until you figure this out.
Make sure your collar stimulation is set correctly.
Get with an area club or proffesional that has done FF (A lot) and have them monitor you as you might not be able to see something they can see from the outside looking in.

There are a lot of changes to FF procedures in recent years. I am not on top of them as I do a different training. These procedures are not the old days procedures where the dog is forced through by any means necessary. If you get with someone who is up to speed on the new procedures I would say it would be best. I admire those that FF their own dogs the first time. It is such a critical and pivotal part of the training I would not recommend doing it yourself, never have. Not when you can go to Tioga or anyone of the clubs and get yourself trained as your dog is being trained. Without being there this is as good of a piece of advice I can give you.

To answer the question, did snake avoidance training do this to your dog. I can't answer that. I would say it did have an effect. What effect that was we can't ever know. Your training setting is or should be super low/my setting has to be full throttle. Mine is a momentary burst, the dog is doing fine on momentary bursts but freaking out on constant stimuli. The more I type and mill this over, I am leaning to the collar being set to high for constant stimuli and it freaks old Scuby out; Or Scooby has figured out a way to get around the training by freaking out.

Whether I be right or wrong though, take him off that collar and don't keep going the way your going right now. Talk to a pro, let them watch your procedure and formulate a plan with that pro. Now is not the time to continue with something that is obviously not working.
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