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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: Wildhorse] #5875863 08/12/15 11:30 PM
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By no means should you ever quench anything after welding! Let it air cool.

Welding is a toss up on the front ring. I would recommend properly annealing, rehardening, the tempering down to the correct hardness. Otherwise you will have inconsistent hardness levels in the ring which could leave to cracking. The rear rings isn't important as it's only purpose is a guide for the bolt.


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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: Wildhorse] #5875873 08/12/15 11:32 PM
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Regarding strength, back in 1977 I had a welder use silver solder to attach braces to custom fuel tank which was then mounted to a rail dune buggy. That machine saw a great deal of hard action and stress of torque on both river mud and hard rock. Braces never came loose or cracked.


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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: Wildhorse] #5875893 08/12/15 11:42 PM
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Ive seen some beautiful welds done in the oilfield on pipelines and high pressure vessels, but they were done by pros that had to pass a welding test for that particular item to even be able to do the job. I welded some metal together to make v shaped metal with a torch and not a rig one time in metal shop in high school. The teacher looked at me and said nothing at all, but I could see the look in his eyes like he was too good to say that damn that looks good. It did, it was perfect little circles and even my friends thought it was cool. He was just that type of guy though. Ive always thought of solder like a glue and not a weld at all. up


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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: TDK] #5875911 08/12/15 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: TDK
By no means should you ever quench anything after welding! Let it air cool.


I disagree. Ever is a stong word. And there have been occasions I have quenched welds. Look up the boiling point of water, brine, and oil and therefore the hardness/ brittleness achieved from each. Therea is also such a thing as an air quench. For instance, after welding cast iron with a nickle rod you have to keep it covered so that it won't air quench and crack.


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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: Wildhorse] #5875939 08/12/15 11:57 PM
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I don't mess with guns made of cast iron, cant comment there. I will stick to my experience gained from making from scratch, heat treating, and welding on dozens of guns.

Most steels used in guns aren't air hardening with the exception of some of the newer steels like S7. 90% of actions are made of 4140 or 8620.

Last edited by TDK; 08/12/15 11:59 PM.

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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: TDK] #5875970 08/13/15 12:08 AM
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And I will stick with my experience of working in a fab shop.

Exactly my point that those steels aren't air hardening. Wildhorse is worried about losing the temper of the action if a pic rail was welded on. And if you'll reread, I told him the action could be quenched if he was worried about annealed steel. I personally wouldn't be scared of it, but if he asked me to quench to give him piece of mind, I would but not in water.


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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: Wildhorse] #5875982 08/13/15 12:19 AM
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Annealing wouldn't be my concern, additional hardening(introducing more carbon while the steel is at critical state, then quenching soon after) or inconsistent hardness resulting from welding then quenching would be. Oil quenching still increases hardness. It's safer to shoot an action slightly too soft than one that us too hard.

As a manufacturer I take additional steps to insure my ace doesn't get in the ringer. An individual isn't burdened with the same liabilities. I would run the action through a complete heat treating cycle if welding on the front ring.

Have fun playing gunsmith.


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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: TDK] #5875987 08/13/15 12:25 AM
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I never said I was playing gunsmith, calling you ignorant, inexperienced, or uneducated.

A pic rail and an action are still just a machine made from a piece of steel. No one sprinkles pixie dust on them and makes them magical. And that is not to claim I am a good enough blacksmith or machinist to build one from bare stock. But welding a pic rail on top aint rocket surgery.


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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: Wildhorse] #5876037 08/13/15 12:55 AM
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It's only a 50,000psi explosion and all the forces along with it 10" in front of your face.


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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: Wildhorse] #5876088 08/13/15 01:20 AM
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The area of the receiver directly around the weld will anneal, but there probably isn't any need to quench it. Even annealed steel is plenty strong in that area of the receiver.

What I would be worried about is warping the receiver. Warping is a very, very common problem with welding. It would not be worth the risk to me. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just tap the receiver and attach the rail with screws.

Just the opinion of a semi-humble mechanical engineer.

Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: patriot07] #5876115 08/13/15 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: patriot07
The area of the receiver directly around the weld will anneal, but there probably isn't any need to quench it. Even annealed steel is plenty strong in that area of the receiver.

What I would be worried about is warping the receiver. Warping is a very, very common problem with welding. It would not be worth the risk to me. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just tap the receiver and attach the rail with screws.

Just the opinion of a semi-humble mechanical engineer.


While I agree that warping is a common problem, a TIG weld represents the least possible chance of warping. Items warp from a continuous weld. Custom auto body fabricators TIG weld thin sheet metal all the time without warping them. It's all about spot welding and letting the metal cool between welds, which is the approach that should be taken if welding a rail on a hardened receiver...

Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: Precision_Shooter] #5876214 08/13/15 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: Precision_Shooter
Originally Posted By: patriot07
The area of the receiver directly around the weld will anneal, but there probably isn't any need to quench it. Even annealed steel is plenty strong in that area of the receiver.

What I would be worried about is warping the receiver. Warping is a very, very common problem with welding. It would not be worth the risk to me. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just tap the receiver and attach the rail with screws.

Just the opinion of a semi-humble mechanical engineer.


While I agree that warping is a common problem, a TIG weld represents the least possible chance of warping. Items warp from a continuous weld. Custom auto body fabricators TIG weld thin sheet metal all the time without warping them. It's all about spot welding and letting the metal cool between welds, which is the approach that should be taken if welding a rail on a hardened receiver...


^^Exactly^^


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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: TDK] #5876216 08/13/15 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: TDK
It's only a 50,000psi explosion and all the forces along with it 10" in front of your face.


It is not an explosion, it is a burn.

And where does the vast majority of that occur? Again, TIG welding rails to actions is not a new thing.


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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action? [Re: Wildhorse] #5878919 08/14/15 09:57 PM
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If I wanted a permanently attached mount, I would have the receiver drilled and tapped and use red loctite on the mounting screws.


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