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What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting #5846696 07/24/15 08:44 PM
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I'd like to separate the rifle accuracy discussion from topic Big game hunting rifle and ammunition to keep the thread clean.



What do you consider an adequately accurate rifle for hunting in Texas condition? My assumption was that shooter shall be able to hit a heart of deer or pig in about 300 yards. If I approximate heart by sphere with radius of 3" it requires accuracy about 1MOA. Would you agree?

What accuracy (assuming user knows what he is doing and condition are about right) can be expected from rifles in $500, $1000, $2000 range with normal factory ammo?

Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5846703 07/24/15 08:50 PM
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I think your 3 inch expectation at 300 yards is beyond the vast majority of hunter/shooters ability, especially considering that a large majority have never shot or practiced at that distance from a bench much less a hunting situation.

I think there will be little change in the accuracy based on price point. some of the cheap rifles are great shooters.

I believe that most current factory rifles are plenty capable of the task, probably more so than the hunters.


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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5846706 07/24/15 08:54 PM
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IMO, pricing of the rifle is not as much of a factor, but more of the quality of the ammo you are feeding it. I can take loads that do not shoot very well in my high end competition 308 rifle ($4K+), and it shoot over moa. But feed it ammo that it likes and it is a legitimate 1 hole rifle. Take my Howa 1500 in 270 Win ($280 when I bought it) rifle and feed it good ammo developed for it, and I'm confident out to about 600 yards with it. But the weapon needs to be a system- Decent rifle, great ammo, and good scope. Then add the shooter. The shooter must be able to shoot this well, also. Then factor in the field conditions of shooting. Lots of variables to consider.


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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5846715 07/24/15 09:02 PM
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most say you need to be able to hit and 8 inch pie plate, i say 6inches . so so whatever distance you can consistently hit a 6 inch circle.



Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5846722 07/24/15 09:05 PM
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I've been on leases where several of the guys only shoot deer at 400+ yards...in the ear...with a .223...and they've taught all their children to do the same...down to 6 year-old junior. 'Course, I've never seen them actually bring a dead deer in. grin


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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5846725 07/24/15 09:08 PM
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A sphere with a radius of three inches has a six-inch diameter which equates to 2 MOA at 300 yards. The conventional wisdom (which sometimes really IS correct) says 2 MOA is sufficient for typical, traditional hunting.


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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: RiverRider] #5846748 07/24/15 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
A sphere with a radius of three inches has a six-inch diameter which equates to 2 MOA at 300 yards. The conventional wisdom (which sometimes really IS correct) says 2 MOA is sufficient for typical, traditional hunting.

Like RR, 2 MOA is my limit as to what is acceptable. I have a 300 yard range on the ranch that I live on and had to put up a 250 yard berm years ago because a lot of fellows think they can shoot 300 yards until they actually try.


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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: RiverRider] #5846751 07/24/15 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
A sphere with a radius of three inches has a six-inch diameter which equates to 2 MOA at 300 yards. The conventional wisdom (which sometimes really IS correct) says 2 MOA is sufficient for typical, traditional hunting.
Thanks! I mixed diameter and radius, Of course you are right!

Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: ChadTRG42] #5846758 07/24/15 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
...
Thanks for the comment. As hand guns hooter I never paid that much attention to ammunition and usually just used the factory ammo. When you are training for hitting the alpha from handgun on 15 yards, the issue is in the hand of the shooter not in the gun or ammo.

Now when I'm getting into hunting and more range shooting I will have to pay way more attention to that. My point was that shooting skill can be learned and different ammo can be bought but you need to know where is you goal and what are the limits of the rifle.

Until recent posts in previous topic I did not consider that rifle can be limitation in accuracy for these distances (up to 300 yards). I though that is just shooting skills and training with given set up. That is why I was thinking about rifle in range of $500 and spend rest on scope, ammo and training. Now I'm not sure if it will be enough smile

Last week I tried the hunting rifle in 30-06 with the scope for the first time in my life and I was hitting in about 4-3" group on 200 yards quite consistently. So half way there... Still I would believe that would be a dead deer.

Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5846779 07/24/15 09:48 PM
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Ammo is why I mentioned in that thread that load workup can run more than a bargain rifle if the gun is being finicky. I know I;ve gone North of $400 in a 7mag that just wouldn't shoot 140gr accubonds. Some of that was me just being stubborn because I had a case of bullets and wanted it to shoot what the 7/08s shot. There really isn't a blanket rule on "typical texas hunting". I'm supposed to be limited by thick brush and pine trees on my shot range, but that's just not the case.

Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5846799 07/24/15 09:59 PM
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1) I wouldn't go with anything smaller than a 7mm-08. Smaller calibers will definitely kill a deer, but why make things any more difficult for yourself. I'm a Tikka t3 fan.
2) A heart shot is OK, but the heart on a deer is low, if you shoot too low, he's gone, even if you hit the heart he can still run a ways and in thick thorny brush that can be a real problem. The shoulder area gives you a shot that can pin him to the spot where he was shot. It also gives you a bigger safe kill area as there is backbone, lungs, top of heart,liver, etc. in the area.I like to aim for the bullet to exit the far shoulder, that works well for me.
3) Unless you just want to, there is seldom a need to shoot over 200 yards at a deer in Texas. If you can hit a 4" circle at 200 yards using an improvised rest, I think you would be plenty proficient with your rifle to go hunting with confidence. Closer than 200 yards your accuracy will improve dramatically so if you can wait for a closer shot, it will pay big dividends.

Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5846870 07/24/15 11:00 PM
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Rem. 700, most Savages, Tikka and Weatherby will give you the accuracy you need right out of the box. To get the best accuracy you will need to buy about a dozen boxes of ammo and test for the best (I truly wish there was a company that offered "test packages", 5 different rounds in a 20 round box). For this reason, if you want the best accuracy possible, I highly recommend Chad at Dallas Custom Reloads. He will work up loads for your rifle, range test them, and come up with the best load for your rifle, at less cost than the dozen boxes you might buy. His pricing on loads is competitive with 'off the shelf' ammo and you are getting the best for your gun.

Last edited by P_102; 07/24/15 11:02 PM.

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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5846884 07/24/15 11:14 PM
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I agree with going with custom loads instead of buying 5 boxes at $50 to find the right one. With today's rifles and ammo I would expect .75 if you do your part

Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5846911 07/24/15 11:27 PM
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It all depends upon where you are hunting. In most areas of Texas, you'd be in good shape with a 30-30 lever gun that can shoot into 3-4 inches at 100 yards.

Out west, there are more long shots, and at bigger critters. In that case, you'd want both more accuracy and more power.


Last edited by charlesb; 07/24/15 11:28 PM.

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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: ChadTRG42] #5849831 07/27/15 12:36 PM
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Chad, can you share your .270 load? That sounds interesting, I have been working with my .270 and haven't gotten the perfect OAL load combination yet.

Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5849837 07/27/15 12:39 PM
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I won't keep a gun that shoots over 3/4" at 100yd.


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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5849944 07/27/15 01:48 PM
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This could have been a VERY interesting thread, but it took me 9 paragraphs to get to the kernel of truth in the LAST paragraph....oh well....all gone now.
JMHO & YMMV
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Last edited by WileyCoyote; 07/27/15 05:26 PM. Reason: exceeded the time and space continuim

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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5850599 07/27/15 09:04 PM
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Yeah, I was also expecting interesting opinions of experienced shooters. But ok I will do study myself smile

Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5850647 07/27/15 09:25 PM
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Everything in Texas is so big, the rifle doesn't have to be particularly accurate here. The secret is to sneak up close enough to put the muzzle up against the hide.

If you can't do that - then you ain't no hunter!




Last edited by charlesb; 07/27/15 09:28 PM.

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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5850731 07/27/15 10:17 PM
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A 30-30 lever gun has been plenty accurate for over a century.


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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5850835 07/27/15 11:38 PM
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Understand... these simple concepts and you can generally be successful enough to get started with enough confidence to be comfortable in the field IMO. Un orthodox practice sessions AWAY from the shooting bench once you've established without thinking levels of breath & trigger disciplines IMO will accelerate your field accuracy learning curve 10 times faster than just pounding paper targets at fixed distance while seated at a shooting bench. Floating leaves in a flowing creek bottom can be a wonderful target range with a scoped 22lr. My "finishing school" was baited river rats at 250-400 yards at a $ a shot "Mexican Sweat" winner take all betting game, using a 243 off hand or leaning over a car hood....when I was making $4.25 an hour on a freight dock at nite in the latelate '60's and very early 70's with a preggy wife at home counting EVERY penny.

Shooting at a 90* angle at a fixed paper target from a static take all the time you want shooting position like a Range bench ...is totally different from the normal hunting exeperience of ... Target ID'd as a live critter & not a shadow ona tree trunk/cactus/wind blowing the leaves funny, Target acqusition in the scope, oh chit it ain't big enough/wrong sex/it's a cow doan't shoot/ hurry up and take the shot/ at how far is that really? measure of hunting accuracy...at the under 200 yards 98% of all WTails in Texas are killed at....either from a usually uncomfortable popup/box blind/ board ina tree/natural ground blind while looking for the rattlesnake you heard in the weeds behind you...

The classic "What range is that" cheater protocol of "MPBR" aka Max Point Blank Range works out to easy reliable killing distances in the 200-250-?300 yards, but is totally dependent on your bullet and cartridge's drop profiles out to those distances for a simple Point/Aim & Pull the trigger shot & impact within the WTails KZ, with bullet impacts within about 2MOA + out to whatever your rigs MAX MPBR is...or the usually accepted 6-9" KZ's of a WTail out to the MAX Distance you've set for your self on Wish Shot Guesstimates.

I'd be willing to bet that waay more than 50% of ALL successful Texas Deer hunters of any age cannot achieve 2MOA accuracy from their rifles at 100 yards while shooting from field positions or offhand....and really a sad state of affairs IMO.

Hunting Accuracy is NOT the same thing as Shooting Bench Accuracy ... but you can't hit the necessary Hunting Accuracy requirement if the Rifle/Ammo/Scope/Shooter equasion cannot support at least 2-3" MOA consistently at 100 yards off the bench IMO....much less be successful on even calm undisturbed not too nervous about everything WTails...much less an agitated squirrelly mature Herd Doe or spooky pre/post rut supersneaky Buck...and just forget running shots on WTails altoghter unless you've learned to shoot running Jack/CTail or Fox squirrels on the ground with a scope sighted bolt action 22 rifle out to 100yards or more. Oh, an IMO Hogs are faster GETOUTTAHERE movers for the 1st 10 yards than WTails...and almost never run in a straight line.

Lastly, bullet impacts on paper targets are all at a 90* angle...bullet impacts on Game animals should be able to be computed without thinking and taken at Any Angle to acheive a fatal wound to the internal organs and with a bullet of reliable construction, weight, and impact velocity to guarantee that result 100% of the time...or don't take the shot.
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Last edited by WileyCoyote; 07/27/15 11:51 PM.

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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5851250 07/28/15 03:21 AM
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Ok, here is what I teach and train myself.

1.Get the rifle/ scope/ ammo shooting as well as all of it can together. That is done prone, or bench (rarely bench)

2. Amid number 1 you find out what to do and not to do to make a clean shot. Meaning "do all this to make the rifle shoot as well as it possibly can". We're trying to eliminate the human error from the equation. So if the rifle/ ammo/ scope is capable of "X" consistency, then those are the limits of the equipment.

3. Once you have accepted the equipment's capabilty then move to challenging your capability. Shoot 1', 2', 3', 4', 5' off the ground (and in between). Learn what it takes to stabilize your position to, again, reduce the human error from the misses and try to master those positions and shoot as small as the rifle/ scope/ ammo can shoot.

After all that, what is the size of vitals of your quarry? If you can hit inside that at "X" distance in "X" position then you, and your equipment, are fully prepared.

A 1 MOA rifle may or may not be a 1 MOA rifle at 600 yards. The dividing line at distance is your ability to judge, and properly compensate for wind.


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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5851408 07/28/15 11:04 AM
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The generally accepted criteria for hunting accuracy has changed in the last few decades, and can be traced back to the advent of advanced manufacturing processes. Computer Numerically Controlled (CNC) machining is the revolutionary factor here, but other new technology such as the laser-based measuring systems have also made a big difference in the average accuracy of mass-produced firearms.

It's been the same with automobiles that now last longer, perform better and require far less maintenance than anything mass-produced prior to the advent of CNC machining and other advanced manufacturing processes.

Because of this, accuracy that was once associated with only the finest firearms, hand-made by highly skilled craftsmen is now considered to be average for mass-produced firearms manufactured by automated systems, largely untouched by human hands.

For this reason, just about any firearm produced by any of the manufacturers today, even down to the bargain models are expected to produce accuracy that was the exception, not the rule as recently as thirty years ago.

So, we hear about hunters today expressing anxiety and disappointment if they can't get their rifle to shoot into one inch at one hundred yards.

Average accuracy has tightened up a lot over the last few decades, but necessary hunting accuracy is still the same; For 99% of all hunting situations, if you and your rifle can put a round into four to six inches at 100 yards, then you can pretty well count on bringing the venison home.

The size of the area you must strike on a deer has not shrunk any, it's still about the size of a pie-plate, thus the ancient wisdom of "pie-plate" accuracy being sufficient for the great majority of hunting situations. - Because in the great majority of hunting situations, the hunter is shooting at a whitetail deer who will be standing 100 yards or less away from him.

The downside of all of this is that it has become less and less plausible to blame misses and crippling shots on the gun. A lot less of this happens than it did in years past, which is why we are sometimes surprised when he read old hunting stories where this kind of mishap was not taken so hard as we tend to take it today.

What has not changed is that a responsible and humane hunter owes it to himself and the game animal to get out there and practice with his rifle, off-season so that when the big moment arrives, he can be more confident about what is going to happen when he pulls the trigger.

The guns are more accurate, and you do not have to have deep pockets to wind up with an accurate firearm - but they still don't sight themselves in, and you still need to develop some familiarity with this tool in order to obtain good results from its use.

This has not changed.


Last edited by charlesb; 07/28/15 11:08 AM.

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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: charlesb] #5851518 07/28/15 01:09 PM
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^^Exactly right^^


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Re: What does it mean accurate rifle for general texas hunting [Re: Obrien] #5851669 07/28/15 02:35 PM
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Thank you guys!

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