Sorry...sometimes I just can't help it.

FJG, I don't believe Tikka offers a short action receiver, but maybe the Finnish R&D boys are about to introduce one???

Pardon me for leaving out a word. Short action cartridge.

Tikkas are long action, but short action chamberings have short action bolt stops.

Sure would like to see Tikka come out with a true SA receiver. In my dreams, I guess......

Dawaba, IMO with Beretta driving the bus nowdays on anything coming out of Rihimaaki...a SA Tikka is a thing of the past, and makes the Kool Factor of the "I Thacka" LSA 55's, as one of my dealers loved to call them, even more desirable. Back To Gun Broker I guess lookin' for the what colored Fleece??
Ron

I only made one post, here!

Two, now.

See, errbody knows Ruger Americans won't shoot.

So after handelling couple of rifles I have three finalists:

• Tikka T3 Lite ($699)
• Weatherby Vanguard S2 ($550)
• Sako A7 Big Game ($1099)

Tikka was super light.. That would for sure be an advantage for waling in woods, but what surprised me was, that it felt really cheap. I do believe it is a quality rifle, but the first feeling was not that nice..

Vanguard S2 was heavier (but not heavy) and felt great! Also the price is really nice.

Sako is a different league in terms of feeling from the rifle. It is really pretty and good feeling rifle but it has double the price of the Weatherby.

Now, do you think I will get anything better from Sako with comparison of the others for the price difference except "having a Sako"? does it have so better quality, accuracy and maybe resell value that it would pay for the price difference? I can afford to buy it but I do not want to buy it just for the look and for "having a sako".

Thanks

7mm-08 love the gun

I have decided to go for 30-06. I shoot it again and the recoil is ok for me.. Plus it is unexpensive, available and powerful..

Out of the 3 rifles you've profiled...initial money aside...I'd suggest buying the SAKO A7 1st, Tikka T3 2nd ** and the Wby Vanguard 3rd.

ReSell - after studying Gun Broker over the last couple years the return on your initial investment & ease of resale will be highest in the unmodified Tikka, then the SAKO not too many of them around and consequently not well known as is the more spendy Model 85, and finally the Vanguard IMO. Tikka's are gaining a reputation for being the best quality cheapest "Donor" gun for custom builds where Remington has always been King. Nobody uses a Vanguard as a donor for a build because the barrels are a real PIA to get off with 90% of the gunsmiths who make of business of customizing not being equiped to or refuse to work on Vanguards when the barrel has to be pulled with the extra hours needed to setup & reset their equipment to do the work.

Older SAKO's are too expensive to trash everything except the reciever to use as a Donor. Besides I prefer the Winchester Model 70 design anyway with it's Mauser '98 styled better gas handling & heavy extraction systems when the poop hits the fan in the chamber - like the upgraded & improved M70 style MRC 1999 reciever - if I'm gonna spend that kinda money on a Hunting Rifle. New & Improved Technology is a wonderful thing, if you can keep up with it...and you really do get what you pay for in Bolt Action Rifles.

FWIW You might take a look at the new Winchester FN made Model 70's to see what I'm talking about...but I'd buy the MRC version 1st at about the same $$'s as the FN M70's are at the top end of their line with the same bells & whistles.

** the Tikka's stock is the shortfall of the way the gun feels cause they use the same barrel as a SAKO A7 & Model 85 off the same assembly line, and can be resolved for an average of about $250+ in a choice of several brand of stocks in Bell & Carlson Medallions, or Boyd laminates & wood stocks in a myriad of stock shape designs and finish out custom options, with both brands requiring a little 'smith fitting occasionaly or are just drop in applications usually. *Montana Rifle Co's base series $1100-$1500 "American Standard Rifle" non custom producution series use a Boyd's Prairie Hunter style stock in American Walnut, and you can see great pics of it on the MRC website...I really like the similar but different Classic style mo bettah though.

FYI - Vanguard's are made by Howa of Japan, and are a fine well made rifle for the high volume price point they are sold at...and a clone of an earlier SAKO series, that was initially so close in design that Howa got sued over it. Not an unusual or a particularly damning event in the Gun Industry as copycats are the ulitimate compliment....but they are still working off the older technology base design that SAKO abandoned umm 30-40 years ago.

They also have some "issues" I particularly don't care for with the way they are bedded and frequently have stocks with barrel channels cut so tight that they can bind a barrel & that is particularly prevalent in the older S1 series in tupperware stocks. The newer S2 tupperware stock style with touch panels and 3 position safety is a vast improvement over the S1 IMO.

Lastly, you need to buy whatever rifle that "fits" you best 1st, then choose a commonly available anywhere caliber next to get into this aspect of the hunting world ...and not parse over the minutia that will ultimately distract you beyond belief.
Ron

Agree with the FN Mod. 70. I have one in .270 Win. in a Super Grade and they are a wonderful rifle (I like the M.O.A. trigger). I have another .270 Win. in a Browning X Bolt White Gold Medallion (Miroku) that is a great rifle as well, VERY smooth bolt and I really like the Feather trigger system. The X Bolt seems lighter overall than the Mod. 70 and I do like the X Bolt's safety location better (tang), but with my hand loads I can't tell a difference in accuracy between the two.

Competent gunsmiths have no particular trouble with re-barreling a Howa, or a Weatherby Vanguard.

You hear about how 'difficult' it is from Remington fanboys who probably couldn't handle a Winchester model 70, either.

The major diameter of Howa/Vanguard barrel threads is lightly tapered for the last half inch or so... Boy, that's really scary, isn't it?

I'm utterly terrified.

Being a competent gunsmith or not is not the issue, it's a business decision. And No that tapered thing isn't the primary problem either ...

Howa 'Bys are threaded in metric, and it takes more time than most 'smiths want to take in resetting their equipment for metric threaded barrels ....and then re setting it back to where they were to begin with...'cause the customer doesn't want/will not pay the extra hourly charges incurred and the 'smith won't eat the extra time either or setup a seperate Howa'By exclusive use only tool since there are so few Howa'bys getting a custom barrel or other barrel change for any reason....at least thats' what I.m told by more than a few 'smiths I inquired on the procedure about.

How many Custom Builds have anyone ever seen on a Howa'By reciever compared to a Winchester Model 70, SAKO, Savage or even a Ruger 77 et al much less my least favorite action in a Remington 700 .... Hmmm wonder why???

As far as difficulty in pulling a Winchester barrel that BS won't fly either.. ..and NO I am not a gunsmith, I just had several hundred of them as customers at one time or another.

However you've just hit on a niche business assuming YOU actually ARE are a gunsmith and have graduated from a program like the Colorado School of Mines offers and is recognized nationally. 'Cause if you are, then if I was you, I'd be advertising in all the magazines and all over the 'net, an almost exclusive opportunity to create a Custom Build off a person's favorite Howa'By.

Then you could take a booth at the SHOT Show to advertise your services & products to Gun Dealers all over the Country like I used to when I was still a factory rep years ago, and not just a rgl mgr for a Dallas based multi state sporting goods distributor, for a well known European Rifle manufacturer that been in business since the 1890's.
JMHO & YMMV
Ron

Many gunsmiths wish that they were machinists... I'm kind of backward, I had twenty years experience as a custom job shop machinist before I developed any interest in working on guns.

As a job shop machinist, I never made more than a few dozen of a given part, they were all custom jobs, and I did my own setups to use every machine in the shop, whatever was required to do the job. Mill, lathe, surface grinder, heliarc welder, screw machine, press, CNC mill, metal cutting band saw, torch, forklift, cutoff saw, etc. etc..

So no, changing over a lathe to work metric threads does not scare me, or put me in over my head. It takes a whole five, maybe ten minutes if you take your time.

You'll hear how 'impossible' it is to work on metric threads from most gunsmiths, because most gunsmiths are competent bench workers who know the minimum amount necessary to do the same two or maybe three jobs over and over with machine tools.

Any kind of new setup, anything beyond their experience terrifies them.

Switching over a lathe to do metric threads is machinist 101 kind of stuff, it's basic.

Isn't this a little silly aren't Mauser actions metric threaded? If a gunsmith can custom barrel a Mauser they can do the same for a Howa. The only reason I can see, not to work on them, is that the first two or three will take more time because they are a little different. Most good smiths I know like the challenge of doing something different.

Thanks a lot for the very detailed and interesting opinion. I appreciate the time you put into it!

'mike et al...like I tell my wife all the time....all I can report is what I've been told by someone who knows more about a subject than I do...mebbe If I WAS a credentialed gunsmith with a resume of work I could offer more of an opinion based on hands on experience...otherwise the overridinhg consensus I've heard is what I've reported. I'm just the Marketing Guy that never lets the Public talk to the gunsmith who's usually too eat up with his own opinions regardless of any one elses. BTDT ...and a very old accurate comment from several of my previous managements.
Ron

In any case, the Howa action is far superior as a rifle action to the stuff run off from bar stock in CNC machines. (Remington, Savage, Mossberg, Marlin, etc.)

None of that bar stock stuff should go for more than what Mossberg charges.

Look at them side by side, compare to a 98 Mauser, a Winchester model 70 - or a Howa. A forged action, flat-bottomed with an integral recoil lug is light-years ahead of a piece of pipe and a washer.

Remington bolt, with brazed-on head and bolt handle. - Bolt handle broken off.



How would you feel about paying the same for this as you would for a forged, one-piece bolt?

And none of that means a hill of beans if you properly center a cut rifled barrel in the jaws; turn, thread and chamber perfect. Do that on any of those actions you just trashed and they will win the day in the right shooter's hands.

I'm no machinist, but I agree. My best friend's grandpa was a machinist and a self-taught gunsmith. He built over a 100 (maybe 200) custom rifles. He started in the 50's and did it until about 10 years ago. It was ONLY his hobby. It took a bunch of persuation for him to sell one.

Bob could make anything for a rifle from raw materials. If he didn't have a part, he built it. If he didn't have the right tool for the job, he built it. I've handled some tools he made just to help build his rifles. He usually used small-ring Mausers (the liked how stream lined they are), but made a bunch on 98 Mausers, and some on Winchesters, Rem, 722/721, and even some on Krags and 1891 Argentine Mausers. He even handmade 5-round internal magazines for the 1891 actions. I've never seen another like that!

Most of the "gunsmiths" today seem to just put parts together.

Well, actually it was the designers who trashed them. - And the marketing types who rip off shooters by charging the same thing for a piece of pipe with a washer as other manufacturers charge for a forged steel action with a one-piece, forged bolt body/handle.

True, the cheaply made actions can be made to shoot - and with a bit less skill than it takes to do the same thing with an action made from a steel forging. But not by much. In either case, you must do the same things.

Roy Weatherby designed and produced the best action from America with the Mk V. Though it is without a doubt the strongest, stiffest, most advanced action to be produced here, and has been for many decades, you don't see a lot of custom rifles made from Mk V actions. Less than are made from Howas, I would suppose.

Most custom rifle makers today are looking for the easiest to work with thing that they can assemble, paint up and then pass off as custom, which usually means a Remington, or a Remington clone that is more pricey. Back in the 1950's the same thing was going on with 98 Mauser and other war surplus actions. With the aftermarket that existed for them, one could produce custom rifles and make enough on them to stay in business.

The reason that you see Remington clone actions from small outfits is that they are the easiest, cheapest bolt action to make. Just about any half-competent machinist can make one, and the markup is astronomical because it's "custom" and not mass-produced.

When Savage and Remington discovered how cheaply a useable rifle action could be made with steel tubing and a washer, the markup made them just as irresistible as the AR-15 has been for the last decade. Savage went for the economy market, while Remington brazenly charged forged-steel prices for steel tubing actions with brazed-together bolts.

That was OK for the 1960's and 70's... But with modern production techniques, the more substantial designs are no longer dependent upon old-world craftsmanship to be produced, and so are rapidly coming right up on the tubing designs as far as ease and economy of manufacture are concerned. The Howa action is a prime example of this, offering the advantages of a forged steel, flat-bottom action at steel tubing prices. In fact, the Howa and Vanguard are coming to be recognized as the best value on the market today. - You get more for what you pay for.

In a recent comparison of less expensive rifle designs today, the Vanguard came out on top as offering the best available quality for the amount of money involved.

I am currently looking at building a HB .223 rifle for my son. A Howa barreled action in stainless with a 24" heavy barrel runs around 500 bucks retail, a Boyds laminated thumb-hole stock in sky blue runs around 100 bucks retail, so for 600 bucks retail, I can put together a high quality rifle that will be recognizably "custom" - and quite accurate with a few assembly tricks that I know.

The economic advantage of the pipe and washer stuff is rapidly eroding. Note how many manufacturers are making close copies of the Model 70 action, now. I think the smarter custom gun makers will be moving on soon, and the Howa action would be a good way to get a foot in the door early on that market. Shooters are going to be demanding better quality as it becomes progressively more affordable.

I know that I sure am. - I'm all done with pipe and washer guns.

The pic of the Remmy 700 bolt with the handle broke off looks all too familiar. I was working a Rep Show at Mr. Carter's Katy store in Houston back in the day, when a older (than me for sure) well put together gentleman approched wearing dirty safari suntans, a deep sunburn with "raccoon" eyes, holding something in his hand. He said that the store mgr, Lynn Dickey had suggested that I might be able to help him with this...and handed me the same looking 700 bolt in two pieces. Said he had just arrived back in country and needed to replace all of his Safari 700's for another upcoming Hunt the following month, and gave me a list of calibers and qty's he wanted asap.

I showed him the SAKO A Series rifles we had in production, arranged to fill in what Mr Carter did not already have somewhere in all 4 of his stores, and then got the back story.

Seems the Hunter had taken just 2 guns, a 375 H&H and a 7RMg, on a 10 day "survey" hunt to check out the PH & his operation, and the 375H&H's bolt broke on the 2nd day. I didn't know this then & never have seen it done or needed to, but he said they took the 7Rmg's bolt and stuck it into 375's receiver and shot the gun while tied to a tree limb with a very long string, from some diatance away to see if it would headspace correctly...and it did...and he finished the Safari that way. The guy still had the 7RMg bolt stuffed in his belt when I saw him, where he said it had stayed the rest of the trip and home.

Remmy 700's went thru a phase of numerous broken bolts for a while and a cottage industry sprang up to do all manner of styles in repair jobs....and became just another reason for 700's being my least favorite rifle. Never ask me about Big Green's marketing practices with distributors...

SAKO's were then and still are as far as I know, a forged reciever & one piece bolt....and I sold a bunch of 'em on those facts....supposedly selling 22% of the World Delivery's one year...dunno & don't care, but the wife and I got a free trip to do a Moose Hunt/Plant Tour with a weeks layover in London, and my choice of a free Classic Grade rifle that I picked out the stock on from all of the Classic grade stocks in the plant...a 1 of 1 ever made AIII 25-06....drop dead gorgeous.

One of my closest friends in the Gun Bidnizz was Dudley Grounds, who some of you oldtimers may remember as the SWest Rgl Weatherby Rep for 22 years. We ate, drank and sometimes traveled together doing Retail Dealer Shows ... so I got to hear all about the introduction of the Vanguards and their pros' and con's...Dud's been gone now about 8-10 years.

I gave Dud my offer of the SWest Rep position for Glock, having already left Stoeger, while doing the US Market intro for Bersa at the Denver Wholesale Trade Show for an ex boss, when Ed had fired him for no reason, simply wanting to distance the Company from Roy's long term people soon after Roy's passing.... so I'll keep the rest of my opinions of Weatherby to myself.

Close? copies of the Pre '64 Winchester are a growing segment, not without some startup issues ala the phrase "Kimber Roulette" on the Yonkers made guns. For a Classic Hunting Rifle, I really like what I see happening in the Montana Rifle Co's American Standard Rifle series...but they have had their foibles too...just not as many of them as Kimber of Oregon or Kimber of NY have had because of where MRC came from originally. Their receivers come out of Pinetree Casting, the Ruger Company that was originally built to make golf club heads & Ruger Receivers. MRC ASR's are about double what a base grade Howa costs...but MRC's Custom Shop is alive and well with sky's the limit options in multiple designs...and they ain't chasing the Big Box Retailer high volume market for sure.

In a Dave Petzal quaintly named category of hunting rifles... called a Peasant Class Gun, I think the T/C Venture is the best under $4-500 rifle on the market...and I am into the last one at a "Very Good Price" substantially below that. I just need to beat the crap out it and see how it stands up...Tomato Stake?? ( like a Remmy 710!!!) or a trust worthy Loaner/Beater/Truck Gun ...we'll see... said the Blind Man ...what happens when the rubber meets the road. T/C uses the same 5R rifling system Bartlien does on GAP rifles....along with Remmy and some other Big Named Custom Barrel mfg'er guys...and is gaining a Rep for accuracy...and does not feel as cheap to me as a Ruger American, Mossberg Patriot, Savage ???et al....even the tupperware stock is a grade above what Hogue normally puts out. We'll see, I'm always open to finding hidden treasures or duck decoy anchors.
Ron

I like some of the lower priced bolt guns, but I have to admit that I am not a fan of synthetic stocks. I've had a few good ones, most notably on a Browning A-Bolt Stainless Stalker - but now days when I look at synthetic-stocked rifles, my next stop is at Boyd's, to see if they have a laminated or walnut stock for whatever it may be.

They have several styles available for the T/C Venture, both right and left-handed.

Cleaning guns and replacing parts is a good 80-90% of most gunsmithing and it is important work, a valuable service. Sometimes that involves making parts for guns, where the parts are not available for one reason or another. Other times you can get the part, but it is not going to just drop in but must be fitted. If you are going to replace the cylinder hand on a revolver for example, that almost always means that you must time the revolver as well.

Making custom guns is in many cases what gunsmiths do to keep busy during times when there is not much regular work to do. The work is seasonal in nature. The old joke is the customer brings in his broken rifle, the day before hunting season opens...

"If I wanted it fixed next week, I would have brought it in next week!"

It's amazing how many last-minute issues need to be addressed just before, and during hunting season. This is one reason why it is good to occasionally shoot your hunting rifles off-season. Besides giving you an opportunity to learn how to shoot your gun accurately, it also gives you a chance to get any problems or issues addressed when the gunsmith is not swamped with last-minute fixes.