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Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining #5839921 07/20/15 08:22 PM
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Yes, it appears the decades of liberal doe harvesting touted by those who hid behind a "balanced herd" approach in order to grow more and bigger trophies has caught up with us.

The article "No More Doe Hunting?" in the current (August) issue of Deer and Deer Hunting magazine is worth a read.

While the article suggests that increased loss to predators is the cause of declining numbers, you don't need a degree in Wildlife Biology to realize that liberal doe harvesting has left fewer doe to overcome the decreasing fawn survival rates.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5839937 07/20/15 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: Texas Dan
Yes, it appears the decades of liberal doe harvesting touted by those who hid behind a "balanced herd" approach to in order to more and bigger trophies has caught up with us.

The article "No More Doe Hunting?" in the current (August) issue of Deer and Deer Hunting magazine is worth a read.

While the article suggests that increased loss to predators is the cause of declining numbers, you don't need a degree in Wildlife Biology to realize that liberal doe harvesting has left fewer doe to overcome the decreasing fawn survival rates.
They must not have done their study around this area.

Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5839943 07/20/15 08:35 PM
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I already don't believe that article and I haven't even read it.

We have 320 acres and kill over 10 does a year for the past couple seasons and just a couple bucks0-3 normally. Our population has at least maintained and more than likely grown a little.

I believe some of the areas out west that were plagued by drought for several years and the fires have had low survival/reproduction rates, but I don't think it has anything to do with doe harvest.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5839989 07/20/15 09:08 PM
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I hunt in Milam county, the population of deer there has exploded over the last 10-15 years. I guess I can't comment on other areas. 15 years ago, I'd be happy as can be to see one or two deer when I went hunting. Nowadays, I see 15-25 deer ever single time I sit. So I guess it's not declining everywhere.

Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5839991 07/20/15 09:10 PM
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Not in any of the areas I hunt in Texas.

Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840046 07/20/15 09:46 PM
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No doe hunting in CA and the deer herds are hurting there. With just shooting branched antler bucks, and protecting Mountain Lions that also prefer lone bucks, they have such an unbalanced herd that over half of the deer are either male or older females that no longer reproduce.

Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840055 07/20/15 09:50 PM
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Deer and deer hunting is a northern and Midwestern deer hunting mag that focuses on that region.

Fact: there are more deer in the u.s today then when Columbus landed. The overall population may be down but it's still way over CC in many places.

You can't take advice from a magazine that is not region specific and tout it as gospel. That's like saying the bass fishing is bad in Texas because of a golden algae bloom in Alabama that killed a bunch of fish


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840059 07/20/15 09:52 PM
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Oh the ole sacred doe. It seems like you think a balanced herd is a bad thing. What's wrong with fewer deer if they are healthier and the land isn't pillaged by a population over the carrying capacity.

Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840065 07/20/15 09:53 PM
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Deer are probably down if you count all species.

Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840093 07/20/15 10:04 PM
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I've taken one doe off my place in 3 years, what a bad mistake. This yr will be a different. rifle

Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: redchevy] #5840189 07/20/15 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: redchevy
We have 320 acres and kill over 10 does a year for the past couple seasons and just a couple bucks0-3 normally. Our population has at least maintained and more than likely grown a little.


The article draws attention to separate studies in the Northeast and Southeast where deer numbers appear to have dropped most.

The article also points out that the focus on reducing the doe population really took off in the 80's and 90's before these areas had significant predator populations, including coyotes. The data follows what I observed back in the early 80's in Mississippi and the "deer a day" approach that hunters took as the QDMA looked on with encouragement. In those days, it was not uncommon to see 600 acre leases with ten hunters take 30 or 40 doe in a single season. When we first participated in the TPWD LAMPS Program back in the 80's, a 600 acre lease in East Texas would have yielded just six doe tags.

We can thank the more conservative approach of the TPWD who never bought in so deeply to "doe mania" for protecting our deer numbers.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840229 07/20/15 11:26 PM
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also thank the mild climates and lack of winter kill


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840246 07/20/15 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: Texas Dan
Originally Posted By: redchevy
We have 320 acres and kill over 10 does a year for the past couple seasons and just a couple bucks0-3 normally. Our population has at least maintained and more than likely grown a little.


The article draws attention to separate studies in the Northeast and Southeast where deer numbers appear to have dropped most.

The article also points out that the focus on reducing the doe population really took off in the 80's and 90's before these areas had significant predator populations, including coyotes. The data follows what I observed back in the early 80's in Mississippi and the "deer a day" approach that hunters took as the QDMA looked on with encouragement. In those days, it was not uncommon to see 600 acre leases with ten hunters take 30 or 40 doe in a single season. When we first participated in the TPWD LAMPS Program back in the 80's, a 600 acre lease in East Texas would have yielded just six doe tags.

We can thank the more conservative approach of the TPWD who never bought in so deeply to "doe mania" for protecting our deer numbers.


Apparently that led to poor herd structure that resulted in more restrictions.

Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840498 07/21/15 02:06 AM
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I hunted Llano county for 23 years. When we started, the landowner put a pickle jar in the well house to store the 'doe permits'. On our 1000 acres we were allowed just 20 does/year.

A few years later, the TPWD got rid of the doe permits. Speaking with the landowner, he wasn't too happy about that because he remembered as a boy in the late 50's that there weren't any deer to be seen. After a 7 year drought, the worst part there towards the end, it was estimated that the Llano county herd had lost between 85-95% of the total herd population.

For years the limit in Llano was something like 2 bucks and no does. You didn't shoot spikes because they all grew up to be 10 pointers. Starting (I think) in the late 60's/ early 70's they went to the doe permit system. You had to have one of these permits to go with your tag or you weren't legal.

By the late 70's the permits were gone and our contract allowed 3 deer - 1 buck and 2 does.

When my group took over management/leasing the property, we got a game count and spoke with a biologist with TPWD. He said by our count we had nearly 400 deer on our 1060 acres. We were advised to take at least 50-60 doe per year for the next 3 years then re-count and see what needed to change.

When I left the lease we were only taking 30-35 doe per year. Each of the 10 members were allowed 1 8 pt or better at least as wide as their ears. In the 5 years of our management the average weight of a field dressed 8 pt went UP from 74 lbs to 105 lbs. The last year this group was on the lease they took 6 10 pts and 2-3 12 pts that all scored between 130 - 150.

The point of all this rambling is that it may be time for the mid-west and south-east to re-analyze their deer take to maximize for whatever their goals are.

Indiana instituted a 1 buck policy but you could take up to 8 doe depending upon what county you were hunting in. The result is better quality bucks and a better balanced herd. Same could be done be it Ohio or Alabama.


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Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840512 07/21/15 02:16 AM
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We completely annihilated does on a lease. Didn't change anything with the bucks, except over time there were fewer of them and fewer of the high scoring outliers. When you have a ton of average browse, freeing up some of it isn't going to do much bc population isn't the issue, browse quality is.

Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840533 07/21/15 02:32 AM
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If you are seeing does, you have to many rifle


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Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840536 07/21/15 02:34 AM
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Hate to say the article is B.S. without reading it or looking at their research methods but they would have to cover an extreme amount of territory to convince me that their numbers were correct. bs


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Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840701 07/21/15 05:02 AM
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"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840753 07/21/15 10:25 AM
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Looks to me that the study centers mostly around mule deer populations declining. That part I can see but not sure that is a result of mule deer doe harvest.


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Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: rifleman] #5840759 07/21/15 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: rifleman
We completely annihilated does on a lease. Didn't change anything with the bucks, except over time there were fewer of them and fewer of the high scoring outliers. When you have a ton of average browse, freeing up some of it isn't going to do much bc population isn't the issue, browse quality is.


I have always equated deer management to managing a lake or pond for fish. I managed an 8 acre lake for some years and implemented many of the same techniques as is done with deer management. They end results were a much improved lake and quality of fish.

Although deer do not live in a confined area like fish do, their range consist of a certain area. If you have a pond with too many fish and limited food sources, then you will get stunted fish. The answer is to cull the number of mouths out of the pond while increasing the forage available - adding perch, etc. To me the same goes for whitetail - control the number of mouths to feed (doe harvest) while improving the food supply (burns, food plots, feeders). The one you cannot control is the rain.

On top of all that, the last step is age. Both a deer and a big bass need time to let nature work so they can grow as they get older. Let the deer walk till they are age 6 or older and throw the bass back in if it is caught at a younger age. Of course one of the "downsides" with the deer side is that you cannot control what your neighbor does - so folks either HF or have enough LF property to eliminate that downside.

The final factor and comparison is genetics. Some folks stock Florida bass in their ponds to enhance genetics and of course the same has been done with deer. A trophy to me, whether it is a deer or bass, is an animal that has reached its fullest growth potential and maturity.

All of the above work hand in hand over time to improve the animals in question.Just my 2 cents


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Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: tlk] #5840828 07/21/15 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: tlk


Looks to me that the study centers mostly around mule deer populations declining. That part I can see but not sure that is a result of mule deer doe harvest.


The link that I posted is another source that indicates declining deer numbers. The D&DH article is based on separate studies that came to the same conclusion.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840835 07/21/15 12:09 PM
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I have learned that when someone is writing an article about a certain subject, they will find or make up the data to support their real motive. Generally if a population is declining over a long term it is for more reasons than just hunting. What has human population and expansion been like in those areas over the same time period as the study?


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Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: tlk] #5840848 07/21/15 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: tlk
The answer is to cull the number of mouths out of the pond while increasing the forage available - adding perch, etc. To me the same goes for whitetail - control the number of mouths to feed (doe harvest) while improving the food supply (burns, food plots, feeders). The one you cannot control is the rain.

On top of all that, the last step is age. Both a deer and a big bass need time to let nature work so they can grow as they get older. Let the deer walk till they are age 6 or older and throw the bass back in if it is caught at a younger age. Of course one of the "downsides" with the deer side is that you cannot control what your neighbor does - so folks either HF or have enough LF property to eliminate that downside.

The final factor and comparison is genetics. Some folks stock Florida bass in their ponds to enhance genetics and of course the same has been done with deer. A trophy to me, whether it is a deer or bass, is an animal that has reached its fullest growth potential and maturity.

All of the above work hand in hand over time to improve the animals in question.Just my 2 cents


I have never seen a defined browse line in any area that I have hunted anywhere in the South, nor have I ever harvested a deer that appeared to be lacking nutrition. Our climate is simply too conducive in producing good deer habitat. The point then becomes that of applying the best harvest limits and restrictions to ensure good age structure. And based on the results that I'm seeing in East Texas, the results of the current TPWD guidelines has never seen any more promising conditions for deer hunters. We have good numbers of deer, and increasing numbers of great bucks.

The TPWD has always been good at avoiding the mistakes made by others, an example being antler restrictions based on width rather than points. And they are also good at basing their decisions on their own research, even when it doesn't follow the beliefs of the more trophy-driven organizations. It's a trend that I sincerely hope they continue for years on end.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840892 07/21/15 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: Texas Dan
Originally Posted By: tlk
The answer is to cull the number of mouths out of the pond while increasing the forage available - adding perch, etc. To me the same goes for whitetail - control the number of mouths to feed (doe harvest) while improving the food supply (burns, food plots, feeders). The one you cannot control is the rain.

On top of all that, the last step is age. Both a deer and a big bass need time to let nature work so they can grow as they get older. Let the deer walk till they are age 6 or older and throw the bass back in if it is caught at a younger age. Of course one of the "downsides" with the deer side is that you cannot control what your neighbor does - so folks either HF or have enough LF property to eliminate that downside.

The final factor and comparison is genetics. Some folks stock Florida bass in their ponds to enhance genetics and of course the same has been done with deer. A trophy to me, whether it is a deer or bass, is an animal that has reached its fullest growth potential and maturity.

All of the above work hand in hand over time to improve the animals in question.Just my 2 cents


I have never seen a defined browse line in any area that I have hunted anywhere in the South, nor have I ever harvested a deer that appeared to be lacking nutrition. Our climate is simply too conducive in producing good deer habitat. The point then becomes that of applying the best harvest limits and restrictions to ensure good age structure. And based on the results that I'm seeing in East Texas, the results of the current TPWD guidelines has never seen any more promising conditions for deer hunters. We have good numbers of deer, and increasing numbers of great bucks.

The TPWD has always been good at avoiding the mistakes made by others, an example being antler restrictions based on width rather than points. And they are also good at basing their decisions on their own research, even when it doesn't follow the beliefs of the more trophy-driven organizations. It's a trend that I sincerely hope they continue for years on end.


We leased a place in Kendall Co. for 20 years It had outrageous deer populations on it as well as a fair number or angora and Spanish goats and cattle... not to mention hogs. The property had a very pronounced browse line.


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Re: Fact - Deer numbers in North America are declining [Re: Texas Dan] #5840903 07/21/15 01:00 PM
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I've never seen one except on a HF place here.

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