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#5823230 - 07/08/15 02:49 PM Fouling shot
TonyinVA Offline
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Registered: 03/24/14
Posts: 1856
Loc: Virginia, USA
I suspect this has been asked before, but is there a consensus as to whether or not you should sight-in or check your zero with a clean or fouled barrel (e.g. one shot through a cleaned barrel).

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#5823271 - 07/08/15 03:11 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: TonyinVA]
syncerus Offline
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Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 1993
Loc: Dallas, TX
I think at least 4 or 5 rounds should be put down a clean barrel before any kind of testing, zeroing or verification of zero takes place. Ideally, you'd have 10+ rounds down the tube. My personal experience has been that the first round out of a clean bore usually has a mind of its own.
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#5823287 - 07/08/15 03:22 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: syncerus]
Judd Offline


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 10762
Loc: Sachse, TX
Originally Posted By: syncerus
I think at least 4 or 5 rounds should be put down a clean barrel before any kind of testing, zeroing or verification of zero takes place. Ideally, you'd have 10+ rounds down the tube. My personal experience has been that the first round out of a clean bore usually has a mind of its own.


I agree...however, normally that mind of its own is normally consistant. The barrel will dictate how many it needs to settle down. Some are 3-5 and I've got one right now that is around 12-15 before it settles. I have a theory that I've not proven to myself quite yet but I believe as a barrel ages it takes more for it to settle. Reason I say this is because the barrel that requires 12-15 used to require 2 when it was almost new. I lost a match last year because the bottom fell out of it because I didn't have enough foulers in it.
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#5823291 - 07/08/15 03:24 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: TonyinVA]
FiremanJG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Heres the scenario. Have a rifle that was shooting 1/2 to 3/4 MOA, and after 400 rounds it is now shooting 1 to 1 1/4 MOA, you know it has a good zero inside that 1 1/4 MOA, and you clean it.

Back to the range fire your clean cold bore (CCB) make note of where the shot landed. Then record shots #2 through as many as it takes until it starts to return to zero and/ or group back to 1/2 to 3/4 MOA, as it was before. Every rifle will be different, but all of mine take more than 5 shots before they are behaving properly, some have taken 20 rounds.

I only clean when the rifle tells me it needs it, and then I only remove carbon with MPro-7. I do not remove copper through the life of the barrel.
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#5823308 - 07/08/15 03:37 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: TonyinVA]
El Tiburon Online   content
Woodsman

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 231
Loc: Suburbs of Gilmer
One thing that should be done is removing storage oil or corrosion inhibitor before the cold shot. Many shoot the first shot with oil in the barrel, which just cooks it in. Always clean it out with alcohol or the like before the shot.

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#5823350 - 07/08/15 04:03 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: FiremanJG]
BigPig Offline
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Registered: 08/27/09
Posts: 9548
Loc: Forney, Tx
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Heres the scenario. Have a rifle that was shooting 1/2 to 3/4 MOA, and after 400 rounds it is now shooting 1 to 1 1/4 MOA, you know it has a good zero inside that 1 1/4 MOA, and you clean it.

Back to the range fire your clean cold bore (CCB) make note of where the shot landed. Then record shots #2 through as many as it takes until it starts to return to zero and/ or group back to 1/2 to 3/4 MOA, as it was before. Every rifle will be different, but all of mine take more than 5 shots before they are behaving properly, some have taken 20 rounds.

I only clean when the rifle tells me it needs it, and then I only remove carbon with MPro-7. I do not remove copper through the life of the barrel.


My Savage is 2MOA high and 1.5MOA left on every CleanColdBore shot. I have routine of cleaning with this rifle. 10 swipes with copper brush, 10 swipes with M-Pro7, and 10 swipes with clean patches. After the CCB shot its always back on center. I can reliably dial for the CCB and hit the bullseye, and I know what each CCB shot is out to 500 yards in 100yd incriments. Now for my hunting rifles, they get cleaned like FJG said, when they tell me it's time.
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#5823356 - 07/08/15 04:05 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: TonyinVA]
El Tiburon Online   content
Woodsman

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 231
Loc: Suburbs of Gilmer
One thing that should be done is removing storage oil or corrosion inhibitor before the cold shot. Many shoot the first shot with oil in the barrel, which just cooks it in. Always clean it out with alcohol or the like before the shot.

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#5823366 - 07/08/15 04:11 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: FiremanJG]
catslayer Offline
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Registered: 12/11/12
Posts: 971
Loc: Straight out of Johnson County
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Heres the scenario. Have a rifle that was shooting 1/2 to 3/4 MOA, and after 400 rounds it is now shooting 1 to 1 1/4 MOA, you know it has a good zero inside that 1 1/4 MOA, and you clean it.

I only clean when the rifle tells me it needs it, and then I only remove carbon with MPro-7. I do not remove copper through the life of the barrel.


sooo is this a sign of your thoughts on barrel break in as well...
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#5823369 - 07/08/15 04:13 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: TonyinVA]
603Country Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 07/03/12
Posts: 4878
Loc: Central Texas
My approach is normally to give it two foulers, but I'm just a hunter and paper puncher. Judd's approach is probably the way I think it generally works best, and Fireman's super detailed note taking is impressive but not really necessary for us country boy varmint shooters. Besides that, he shoots constantly and well, and his notes on shots 2 through 50 would actually mean something. My notes would be more like "I pulled the 3rd shot" and blinked on 5 and 6, and "I just don't know what happened to make that 9th round go over there". A fellow would have to be a truly fine shot, and 'bonded' with his rifle to make notes that would be of any use.

As for removing copper, or never removing it, I really think that depends on the barrel and if it's factory or custom. When I clean, I'll take out all the carbon fouling and whatever copper comes with it when I'm doing that. If that won't bring a favorite shooting rifle back to where I think it should be, then I'll take the copper out. The only rifle I have these days that will 'copper up' much is my 220 with the Douglas barrel. The barrel has got some age on it and isn't as smooth as it once was. Still shoots great though.

The new 223 barrel from Horizon doesn't seem to pick up any copper at all. Same with the Brux barrel on the 260. And, for what it's worth in terms of copper laydown (or not), I shoot mostly Nosler bullets.

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#5823386 - 07/08/15 04:26 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: catslayer]
FiremanJG Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: catslayer
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Heres the scenario. Have a rifle that was shooting 1/2 to 3/4 MOA, and after 400 rounds it is now shooting 1 to 1 1/4 MOA, you know it has a good zero inside that 1 1/4 MOA, and you clean it.

I only clean when the rifle tells me it needs it, and then I only remove carbon with MPro-7. I do not remove copper through the life of the barrel.


sooo is this a sign of your thoughts on barrel break in as well...


A brand new barrel needs to be thoughrouly cleaned free of machining fluid and steel chips.Then put 20 rounds down it before you beleive what it will really do. I always build 20 foulers before I build the test loads for load development. Shoot clean, shoot clean is hogwash. Foul it up well, then get to work.
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#5823445 - 07/08/15 05:25 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: TonyinVA]
Texas Dan Offline
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Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 11274
Some barrels will produce "flyers" more than others. My Remington ADL will drive a tack on the first shot, while my Winchester Model 70 needs two or three shots before it settles in.

The earlier point that an excess of protective oil can impact accuracy is a good one IMO. I've found that Hornady One Shot Gun Cleaner and Lube leaves little residue while being rated as one of the most effective protectants on the market today.
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#5823456 - 07/08/15 05:31 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: TonyinVA]
cabosandinh Offline
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Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 1159
Loc: Dallas, TX
you need to know where your zero are from clean bore to dirty bore

shoot 10 groups of 5 and take notes

do it again to confirm

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#5823958 - 07/08/15 09:39 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: TonyinVA]
TonyinVA Offline
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Registered: 03/24/14
Posts: 1856
Loc: Virginia, USA
Appreciate all the comments...more or less confirms what I thought....that is disregard the first few shots on a freshly cleaned barrel and let it settle in.

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#5823989 - 07/08/15 09:58 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: TonyinVA]
charlesb Offline
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Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 1408
Loc: West Texas mountains
This is why I used to particularly treasure my old Browning A-Bolt stainless stalker in .300 Winchester magnum. That rifle was absolutely reliable about putting the first three shots out of a cold, clean barrel into 1/2" at 100 yards. It would do this with Federal premium 180 grain factory loads, every time.

A rifle that will do this is a treasure to any hunter.
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#5824018 - 07/08/15 10:13 PM Re: Fouling shot [Re: FiremanJG]
TTUhunter4 Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 07/03/10
Posts: 626
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
I only clean when the rifle tells me it needs it, and then I only remove carbon with MPro-7. I do not remove copper through the life of the barrel.


Did you post that backwards by mistake? Copper fouling is the enemy of accuracy. You want to keep the copper out and let a good layer of carbon coat the bore.
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