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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5787876 06/14/15 02:49 AM
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How can I practice at 350yds when I don't have the range capability that allows for that distance?

Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5787888 06/14/15 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: 257.Bob
How can I practice at 350yds when I don't have the range capability that allows for that distance?


Sounds like an ethics question to me.

Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5787955 06/14/15 03:49 AM
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Just find your ammo and get your glass and enjoy your hunt. Don't overthink it.

Re: Leupold CDS [Re: J.G.] #5787991 06/14/15 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
I really don't understand the disconnect some people have with practicing on vitals sized steel and translating that into hunting. confused2


If you were referring to my comments, you couldn't be more further from the truth. I probably throw more bullets down range practicing on each of my hunting rifles that most. However, I don't shoot at animals past 300 yards, thus I don't practice past that distance. Also, when I practice shooting for hunting, I am aiming at a 1" circle, not a 9" pie pan. Maybe it is the bow hunter in me, but I was always taught to "aim small, miss small"...both by my Dad and my military instructor.

I also think that there is a big difference between shooting at paper/steel than animals. 1) More often than not, trophy animal shots are taken during first and last night Vs most shoots happen during daylight hours (can't think of an qualified event that would shoot during low light hours due to safety concerns). 2) Lot of difference between shooting at animals vs paper/steel. Can't think of once that I have got "buck fever" at the range. 3) when you hunt, you tend to pay less attention to your rifle vs most people show up to events with their rifles in nice cases and make sure not to hit the scope in fear of knocking it off. I can think of numerous times that my rifle has fell down or dropped while hunting. If this happens, it is nice to have a Leupold on it.

With all this being said, the more you practice, the better you will be. I believe both situations help you be a hunter shooter or target shooter. I also believe that the best scope for hunting may not be the best scope for shooting steel.

One of these days, I would like to go to a long range shooting camp. There are several very nice camps in Wyoming by custom gun makers that give you 3 days free camp with purchase of a $5k to $25k custom rifle. I know several guys that have done this and they come back with great memories of hitting 1,000 yard targets in 20mph to 35mph winds.

Re: Leupold CDS [Re: Pittstate] #5788175 06/14/15 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pittstate
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
I really don't understand the disconnect some people have with practicing on vitals sized steel and translating that into hunting. confused2


If you were referring to my comments, you couldn't be more further from the truth. I probably throw more bullets down range practicing on each of my hunting rifles that most. However, I don't shoot at animals past 300 yards, thus I don't practice past that distance. Also, when I practice shooting for hunting, I am aiming at a 1" circle, not a 9" pie pan. Maybe it is the bow hunter in me, but I was always taught to "aim small, miss small"...both by my Dad and my military instructor.

I also think that there is a big difference between shooting at paper/steel than animals. 1) More often than not, trophy animal shots are taken during first and last night Vs most shoots happen during daylight hours (can't think of an qualified event that would shoot during low light hours due to safety concerns). 2) Lot of difference between shooting at animals vs paper/steel. Can't think of once that I have got "buck fever" at the range. 3) when you hunt, you tend to pay less attention to your rifle vs most people show up to events with their rifles in nice cases and make sure not to hit the scope in fear of knocking it off. I can think of numerous times that my rifle has fell down or dropped while hunting. If this happens, it is nice to have a Leupold on it.

With all this being said, the more you practice, the better you will be. I believe both situations help you be a hunter shooter or target shooter. I also believe that the best scope for hunting may not be the best scope for shooting steel.

One of these days, I would like to go to a long range shooting camp. There are several very nice camps in Wyoming by custom gun makers that give you 3 days free camp with purchase of a $5k to $25k custom rifle. I know several guys that have done this and they come back with great memories of hitting 1,000 yard targets in 20mph to 35mph winds.


I would say your thoughts are a bit skewed. The steel can and usually will have a dot painted on it especially in instances like being referred to here.


As far as shooting during certain light I personally only get to shoot in the late evening and will do so till dark which is well past legal light for hunting. There are several low light or night shoots happening more often these days than in the past.

Also your view of "competition shooting" is a bit off depending on the discipline. Take the prs for example there is climbing a lot of moving with odd field position shots thrown in. Optics and rifles all take a fare amount of banging around yet still are required to hut targets at long range. If you look a br or F-class they are all about staying still and shooting itty bitty groups and typically take the utmost in care for their equipment. I will say you seem to have had much better luck with leupold than I have with the exception of a MK4 I've sent several back that died in a farm truck bouncing around while my NightForce, Bushnell Elite Tac and Razor have been perfect.


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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: Pittstate] #5788191 06/14/15 02:20 PM
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I'll try to do this in order.

I too am not trying to hit the target. I am trying to hit the center of it, therefore the word "Precision" in my company name.

Yes buck fever does not happen while shooting steel or paper. Have you ever heard the term "don't practice until you get it right, practice until you can't get it wrong." How much thought do you put into operating a vehicle now versus when you were a yound teen? That's how some of us are shooting a rifle no matter steel or animals due to years of practice, learning our limitations as well as our comfort levels.

I treat my rifles more like a wrench that a piece of crystal. It is a precision machine that rides butt down in the passenger floorboard of the truck, mag in bolt back every day I am not on duty. The rifles have had plenty of sand in the actions and mud on the outside. I have scopes with tons of scratches all over them, but the inside is perfect and they work as designed in "less than perfect" conditions.

Yes you can spend thousands of dollars to learn how to hit small at long range. You could also spend $300 and come to my range and learn the exact same data in a one on one setting. I've lost count how many THF members have been out and not a single negative review to date.


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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5788350 06/14/15 04:16 PM
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FiremanJG, I have no doubt that you run a top notch range and have seen the feedback from several members on here as being outstanding. Heck, I wouldn't mind coming over sometime and going through your course because I think it is beneficial. My advice above was based on hunting and scopes. I will say that in competition, if you hit any spot of the metal it counts. In hunting, it only counts if you find the animal.

I own scopes from most of the better scope makers and the one that I have most confidence in after it drops from 10 feet and hits the ground is my Leupolds.

My second point is that Long range scopes are made with special detail to tracking where hunting rifles are made for durability/low light ability.

Take a Vortex PST for example. A) Usually their tracking is spot on. B) There low light visibility at low light is poor (even worse the higher power you go). C) I would have zero confidence if it dropped from my tail gate to hard ground and hit my scope.

Take a Leupold FX3/VX3/VX6 CDS for example A) tracking is usually good, but I would verify B) Low light visibility is very good, especially the fixed scope (FX3). C) Toughness is second to none, if you drop from 15 foot tower box blind, I would have 100% confidence that my next shot will be dead on.

So, if I were going buy a scope for mainly long range shooting, I would listen to someone other than me about which scope to buy because I don't have enough experience with them to give an expert opinion. But, if I am going to use the scope for mainly hunting with practicing out to 300 or even 500 yards, my advice above is very solid.

So many times members chime in with advice that is not based on known facts. So many people will chime in that this cooler is the best or this gun is the best without ever owning and using them. The advice that I give is based on items that I personally own and use a lot. Every scope I mentioned I own or have owned. I sure wish I could have sifted through the BS reviews before building my gun/scope/etc library. That is the only reason I give my unbiased opinion on here at times. If I can just help a few people avoid the mistakes that I made in purchasing such gear, it is worth it.

Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5788367 06/14/15 04:27 PM
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You are comparing a bottom end lr/tac scope to a mid/higher end hunting scope, not very comparable besides price. I have had more than one vx3 and vari x 3 go down from just a truck ride there is no way I would trust them after a hard fall. The 6 series us said to be much better yet is higher priced too.


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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5788379 06/14/15 04:35 PM
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The Leuopld FX3 and VX3 are very comparable price to the Vortex Viper. That is why I mentioned them. The VX6 is about 3 times the price of the Viper. IMO the FX3 and VX3 are just as tough as the VX6. The VX6 has better glass than the VX3, but the FX3 (fixed 6x42) seems to be just as clear the last 10 minutes of legal. That is VX6 at 6 power vs FX3.

I don't own any of the top tier lr/tac scopes for comparison and that is why I said my knowledge is very limited in that area.

Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5788382 06/14/15 04:37 PM
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And let me clarify one thing. The old Leupolds with the tension adjustment knobs did not hold zero very well after drops.

Re: Leupold CDS [Re: dee] #5788485 06/14/15 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: dee
You are comparing a bottom end lr/tac scope to a mid/higher end hunting scope, not very comparable besides price.


I quote dee, because he and I are of the same background. Hunter first, learned to shoot smaller and farther, and can use that knowledge back into the hunting field.

To say the Tac scopes are not built for clarity and durability is way off base. That is within the top three priorities of those mid to high end tac scopes. Vortex Viper does not measure up against many, many other models from various manufacturers. Once you hit about $1200+ you get into better clarity than the Viper. The Viper PST is a scope to get people started, I have one, but I also have an SS 5-20, and Bushnell Elites. No contest for the Viper PST in low light clarity. Keep in mind, many of these scopes that some of us use were also intended to be placed in the hands of our men hunting men over seas. So I know which brands and models I would trust my life with based on durability and clarity. I do hunt with all of those scopes, BTW.


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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: Pittstate] #5788514 06/14/15 06:26 PM
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I hit on steel is a hit, but a miss on a hunting shot?

My big targets are 2 MOA, so:

200 yards 4"
300 yards 6"
400 yards 8"
500 yards 10"
600 yards 12"
700 yards 14"
800 yards 16"

You call what distance gets the target so big that it is larger than deer vitals, or even elk vitals.

I also have one half the size of those hanging right next to em. Those 1 MOA targets hurt everyone's feelings, very often. grin


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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5788656 06/14/15 08:14 PM
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Don't want to argue, as I agree with about 90% of what you are putting down. I just have two questions.

If you hit a deer and you don't kill it and find it, do you still get the meat from that deer?

If you hit the outer edge of your steel target and it rings, do you get credit for a hit?

No different from dusting a clay and getting credit vs. dusting a pheasant/duck and it never falls.

Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5788699 06/14/15 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: 257.Bob
Hey guys,
Got a new Leupold VX3 CDS on the way. This scope will sit on a rifle that will hopefully be used throughout the state. I'd love to use this scope from everything from right along the coast, to out in west Texas, to Northeast Texas, and out to the Panhandle. What would be the optimum elevation to tell the folks at Leupold that my elevation will be ? 1000ft?


Been lurking here a while, but I am a new poster here. Figured this would be as good a time as any to start. I've been hunting big game since 1971, and the newer VX3 3.5-10x40 w/CDS for 3 years now, primarily on two different 7-08's. Both of them have the custom dials with zero stop set up for 140 Accubond, 2800 fps, 3000 ft elevation, 200 yard zero. This setup allows you to shoot out to 600 yards. With around 300 rounds down the tube of each rifle, the CDS has been very repeatable and accurate. I haven't shot at a big game animal that far, mainly due to wind, but I much prefer to dial for distance instead of using dots, hashes, etc that become very hard for my 54 yr old eyes to see in poor light. I also have a couple of VX6's w CDS on my 7mags and they've been perfect as well. The VX6 competes well with any hunting scope made.

Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5788789 06/14/15 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pittstate
Don't want to argue, as I agree with about 90% of what you are putting down. I just have two questions.

If you hit a deer and you don't kill it and find it, do you still get the meat from that deer?

If you hit the outer edge of your steel target and it rings, do you get credit for a hit?

No different from dusting a clay and getting credit vs. dusting a pheasant/duck and it never falls.


Of course if you don't recover the animal it is a failed shot, in my opinion. I have not had that happen in five years. Longest shot I have killed this year is 540 yards on a coyote. He walked 15 yards (I watched him walk) after watching the impact happeb perfectly on vitals. After 15 yards he pile up and that was that. Riddle me this, would a vitals hit on a coyote at 540 yards have equaled a vitals hit on a whitetail at the same distance? Without a doubt, the vitals on a coyote are significantly smaller and they really really want to live.

Go back and re-read where I said those of us that shoot the distance as often as we do, know our limitations. 600 yards is often not my limitation, depending on wind conditions. 0 yards to 400 yards I have no limitations other than certain positional problems. If I can get as steady as I want I will take that shot, even in 30 mph wind. That comes down to knowing your external ballistics on paper as well as in the field.

Go a


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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5788827 06/14/15 10:34 PM
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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: Pittstate] #5789415 06/15/15 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pittstate
And let me clarify one thing. The old Leupolds with the tension adjustment knobs did not hold zero very well after drops.


My experience is with newer models, while I did recently send one of those in and they sent me a new fx series. The varix iii was a tac model which was the predecessor to the mk4 and the paralax took a crap. Others have had holding zero issues. While it might not have been a large shift it is still a issue.

While I will agree that the vipers are not great but they sell well on the premise of the warranty very similar to leupold imo.

Tac or lr scopes cost a lot due to the features they have. The mid tier is where glass starts getting a lot better but the price starts climbing a good bit as well due to the combination of glass and features.

My lr/do all rigs have been put through hell. They have scratches, dings, gouges and paint missing yet still track perfectly despite the abuse. My NightForce was used on my 7mm last season and took pigs, coyotes and a deer in the 400-521yd range without a single worry of tracking. Keep in mind that when I carry my rifle the main concern I have is the crown of the barrel. My Razor fell over in the bed of a truck at my last match straight onto the windage turret while attached to a 16lb rifle so it hit with a bit of force yet held just file as I was ringing steel at the next stage with no issues.


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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5790111 06/15/15 07:24 PM
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Just use the MOA turrets on the scope and dial in MOA. Forget the CDS turrets that lock you into 1 solution. Learn MOA with the scope, and you will be fine. I have taught many shooters how to use their MOA turrets with great success.


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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: ChadTRG42] #5790161 06/15/15 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Just use the MOA turrets on the scope and dial in MOA. Forget the CDS turrets that lock you into 1 solution. Learn MOA with the scope, and you will be fine. I have taught many shooters how to use their MOA turrets with great success.



MOA works just fine! Fireman is just butthurt he can't remember the formulas. LOL Just Kidding.


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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: NewJeep] #5790241 06/15/15 08:51 PM
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Well heck if the scope is labeled in MOA then just use that way. Guess I had a blank turret in my mind's eye.


(Still inferior to Mils peep)


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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5790269 06/15/15 09:09 PM
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Mils is for inferior minds!


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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: NewJeep] #5790394 06/15/15 10:36 PM
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Nonsense!


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Re: Leupold CDS [Re: 257.Bob] #5790450 06/15/15 11:19 PM
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Glad to see this "new" subject up again whip


SPACE FOR RENT


Re: Leupold CDS [Re: SR025] #5790458 06/15/15 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: SR025


FREEEEKKKIINNN FUUUUUNNNYYY banana


SPACE FOR RENT


Re: Leupold CDS [Re: NewJeep] #5790576 06/16/15 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: NewJeep
Mils is for inferior minds!


Lets see. Round here....

Chad was a pretty big fan of MOA and is slowly replacing everything with Mil.
Dee was a pretty big fan of MOA amd now has a Mil/ Mil scope to shoot Tac matches.
Judd, the die hard bench rester now also has a Mil/ Mil in the fleet.

You are just the next one on my hit list, pal ! grin




Buzz,

This debate will live as long as MOA scopes are still manufactured.


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